20041029Steve Barbey.pdf

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Steve Barbey
StopldahoPower.com
PO Box 133
Eagle, 10 83616
Idaho Public Utilities Commission
Office of the SecretaryRECEIVED
OCT 2 8 20O't
October 25, 2004
Boi sa, Idaho
Idaho Public Utilities Commission
POBox 83720
Boise, Idaho 83720-0074
Re: Case No. IPC-04-04 City of Eagle versus Idaho Power
Dear Commissioner
On October ih we began the roll-out of our community awareness campaign in support of the
City of Eagle against Idaho Power. Over the next 45 days we will continue to expand our
awareness campaign to bring more attention to the matter. On November 15th we will begin
phase two of our awareness campaign to further rally Eagle residents against above ground
installation of the proposed transmission lines and power poles.
We respectfully request that Idaho Power not be allowed to damage our town. When one weighs
the true long term damages of above ground installation against the installation costs, it is clear
that above ground installation is not a viable solution.
Modern communities across the nation have adopted underground installation as the preferred
installation method because they realize that the long term benefits significantly outweigh the
costs. Please help us to preserve the beauty of Idaho.
Enclosed please find a copy of the current poster we are using to create community awareness.
Also enclosed please find a copy of some of the dialog that Eagle residents are having on
StopldahoPower.com. There are comments, feedback and suggestions which I hope you will find
of value.
Please continue to provide us with the time needed to create an awareness of the issue and
explore solutions to financing underground installation.
Many sincere thanks
Steve Barbey
Stopl dahoPower. com
StopldahoPower~hotmail.com
cc: City of Eagle
StopldahoPo . er.com
Save Eagle, Id'aho
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L.~ Overview of Idaho Power s proposal for Eagle
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Charles
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~ Posted - 10/22/2004: 19:35:03 I!e
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1 Posts whoa... this isn t right at all. i understand the need to expand power lines
but there must be a better way than to put these ugly poles in the heart
of Eagle. The new coffee shop on Eagle... Rembrant's or Davinci's or
something is opening up on monday... from the looks of it these people
just dropped a huge bundle of cash into buying and restoring this building.
Now the power company is going to put huge power poles right across the
street and all throughout Eagle... what gives? Not to mention the eagle rib
shack , the lettuce leaf and the old fashioned ice cream shop which are all
recently new businesses, they re all right across the street from where
this garbage will be.
this is no good... there has to be a better way. downtown eag Ie is just
starting to look like a destination spot and now there going to do this?
arrgh. we need to do something to find a better way.
did eagle ever receive a bid from idaho power on how much it will cost
put these power lines underground?
StopIda hoPower .com
Edited by - Charles on 10/22/2004 19:39:
~ Posted - 10/23/2004: 12:02:04
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10 Posts
In addition to our new businesses in downtown Eagle, the Eagle River
development on the South East corner of Eagle and Highway 44 is also
affected. In fact, they believe the power lines will devalue their property
so much that they are very much involved in the process.
Read about it here:
http://www.puc.state.us/fileroom/e ectric/ipc-04-04/eagleriver. pdf
B't
SammyL Il!J Posted - 10/23/2004: 22:00:25 (f:g
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7 Posts Good. I'm glad to see that Eagle River is taking action. I noted this
statement in the document:
the property will be fenced by a mile of industrial 70 to 90 foot towers
with metal cob-webbed lines that will obstruct the landscape. As a result
the development (Eagle River), which is desined to focus on the outdoor
aesthetic, to attract pedestrian traffic, and to creat a lifestyle commercial
center with outdoor-seating in cafes and restaurants, will be destroyed.
StopldahoPo ,er.com
Save Ea;gle,ldaho
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L.~ Overview of Idaho Power s proposal for Eagle
Is this a sure thing?
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Jacob
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00 Posted - 10/15/2004: 10:04:40
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2 Posts These big poles are really ugly. I drive McMillan often to get to
construction site in NE Meridian... -U-G-
The wooden power poles in Eagle are one thing, in fact, one could even
say they're even kind of quaint... but these monster metal poles and the
tons of wire than come with 'em... forget it.
SammyL ~ Posted - 10/15/2004: 13:06:29
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9 Posts I agree. No way do we want this garbage in Eagle. What I don
understand is if this has been going on for years as they say it has , why
hasen t anyone heard about it? Also , what can we do about stopping this
now? maybe someone can file a lawsuit to get an injunction? Any lawyers
in the house?
loolow59 ~ Posted - 10/15/2004: 22:27: 13
1 Posts This is the first I've heard about it too. I really hope they don t go through
with this. Why won t Idaho Power tell Eagle how much it will cost to bury
the power lines? If these big power poles get installed in Eagle , our
community will feel junky and cluttered. I love the "feel" of Eagle, let's not
ruin it with these overbearing power lines. Thank you for making me
aware of this... I'm going to help do something about stopping this.
Gus ~ Posted - 10/21/2004: 09:45: 55 I!e
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4 Posts I have had some experience with these kinds of issues while I served
the Military and some of the work I have been involved with since. You
can reject an old man s ramblings if you want but here are some things
you might want to think about.
l.The 75ft poles will likely be spaced quite a distance apart and not like
the doctored photo suggests. The poles are expensive and it doesn t make
sense to install more than is absolutely required for the job. Part of the
reason for the 75ft poles is to maintain safety clearances and to minimize
land impact.
You mention that the voltage is twice what is required to serve the
10ad.....I could launch into a long dissertation about voltages and loads
and current carrying capacity but I have an idea it wouldn t be understood
by very many. It is sufficient to say that if you cut the voltage in half that
you have to carry twice the current to serve the same load. If you have to
carry twice the current then you have to build with much larger
conductors and that means larger poles to carry the weight of the wires.
Or you will have to build more circuits... I'm certain that thought is not
acceptable. More circuits=more poles=bad idea!
The idea of burying the high voltage feed is attractive from a visual
standpoint but very impractical from a cost standpoint. This line would
very expensive to build underground and very expensive to maintain as
well. This high voltage underground is not very common even in the very
high load density areas of California and New York and the like for that
same cost reason. I might add that typically when you require unusual
construction techniques on a regulated utility then you (the city and
citizens) must pay for the increaded costs. I imagine that underground
installation of this high voltage feed would cost many millions.
I wouldn t like to have this system in my back yard but it looks like the
need is there for your community to have the upgrade in electrical
service. The real question is, Where are you going to build the needed
facilities to serve the electrical needs so you can live the good life you
want? This must be something that the community leaders (and the
citizens) agree to so you can continue to have what you want. No cry
babies - The need is there so what is the right way to get it in place?
Good luck, Gus
SammyL (if! Posted - 10/21/2004: 22:37:29 ijJ
9 Posts Gus... no rejection of anyone s ramblings... i think this is an open forum...
in any case, I agree with part of what you have to say, specifically:
I wouldn t like to have this system in my back yard"
While everything else you say makes sense... I think this is the most
important part. Its very easy to get lost in the arguments, but the bottom
line is these lines are ugly and affect property VALUES. This means REAL
MONEY to the residents and businesses of Eagle.
Do we need power? Yes.
Are there better ways about implementing more power without 75' poles?
Yes.
The "idea " of burying the lines is NOT impractical from a cost standpoint
when you take the peripheral costs of the power poles to the community
into consideration.
For example... let say they run these lines from downtown Eagle all the
way to star... this will devalue miles of ground and many many acres of
property. Let's say just 250 homes and business will be affected. 250
homes (Q) 1V$200,000 devalued $20 000 each. That is is a $5,000,000
cost to the community of Eagle.
That pays for quite a bit of underground power lines.
Sa m myL ~ Posted - 10/21/2004: 22:48:32
9 Posts Gus
I just took a second look at the photo on the 'read me first' post. I agree
that the poles are too close together, but let me tell you this... even if you
removed the middle pole (which would make this probably pretty close to
what it would be), it is still a HUGE eyesore... would you disagree?
I moved here from another city where ALL the power lines were
completely buried underground. It made a HUGE difference. I love Eagle
and I don t want to see Idaho Power turn our great little town into a wire
and pole nightmare when there are other options available.
Sammy
Gus lID Posted - 10/22/2004: 07:00:29
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4 Posts SammyL
I see your concern about property values and I'm sure at least some of
what you say is true about loss of value. The $5 000 000 will not cover
very much of 138KV or 230KV underground installation. I don t know what
voltage is planned for the project but the photo suggests one of these two
voltages. Even if the $5M is a good number, there is still the question of
whether the community is willing to pay it. And if it isn t (that would be a
mean tax to lay on people and now isn t a good time for politicians to seek
a tax increase) then what are the other options for the power to get to
wherever it needs to go? Is there another route that is both acceptable to
the community (compromise?) and to the power company for an effective
design of the power grid? You need the power or the power company
wouldn t propose to spend any money for an upgrade (that is the simple
economics of it) and simply saying that it must be underground or don
build it ignores the costs involved. What is the cost of no growth to the
community because there is no capacity available to serve the electricity
requirements?
Gus
StopIda hoPower .com ~ Posted - 10/22/2004: 11: 12: 37
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10 Posts I'm glad to see that folks are starting to chime in with opionions. Gus, you
mentioned that you worked with these types of issues in the Military and I
wanted to thank you for your service to our country. Thank you.
Given the dialog here, I think there are two key truths in the discussion.
Specifically:
1) There is a need for expansion of power lines to enable continued
growth of the community.
2) The power line expansion as it is proposed will negatively affect
property values costing the residents and business of Eagle real money.
, we know we need to expand power lines, but the expansion as it is
planned will be harmful to the community. Logic dictates that a solution
that provides for expansion of the power lines but does not harm the
community would be ideal. It is the purpose of this board to allow
community members to share their input and ideas towards this goal.
Planned communities across the nation and world have begun burying
their power lines. If the net bottom line economics of underground power
lines considering property value declines in the community and the costs
to the power companies do not make sense , then there would be no
undergroud power lines anywhere.
The fact of the matter is that there are master planners in our country
that HAVE IN FACT found that the net benefits of underground lines
outway the costs of installing them. If this were not the case, all lines
would be above ground.
Perhaps we should solicit outside assistance from such a person to help
understand the long term economics and the true net costs.
Perhaps Idaho Power should change their core philosophy and implement
a fundamental change to their way of doing business. Work the economics
to determine a fiscally responsible way to bury ALL new power lines in
Idaho. A committment to keeping Idaho beautiful as we continue to grow.
I think this is a fair request.
Will this mean that taxes must be raised or rates increased? Perhaps. Is it
worth it? That is for the people to decide. And , again , the purpose of this
board is to create an awareness so that the people will have an
opportunity to voice their opinion.
SammyL lID Posted - 10/22/2004: 12:33:35
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9 Posts I agree. The economics are clearly an issue, but an investment now will
pay for years and years to come. I also agree about a long term plan for
Idaho. While Eagle is the focus of our talks today, the long term beauty
and character of Idaho is as stake as well.
Let's make the investment in our future.
Gus lID Posted - 10/23/2004: 06:30:02 ijj
4 Posts I think we are getting to the core of the situation. I do wonder if you
realize the difference between underground distribution lines (12KV and
35KV) underground transmission lines at 138KV or 230KV. The differences
are orders of magnitude greater in cost and technical difficulties to
overcome. It is true that planned communities have the power lines
underground and I like it that way as much as you do. To my knowledge
Idaho Power has no underground transmission facilities. If I am right
then you would be asking them to make you the first for such an
installation. First time installation of any technology has a learning curve
but I'm sure that can be overcome in time. Please don t misunderstand
me - I am in favor of putting power lines in the ground - transmission
lines carry a whole set of unique problems and costs. I have to think that
just the cost alone for such a venture would make me look long and hard
at other options before I committed to the expense of underground
transmission lines. I think the $5 000 000 would only be 5-100/0 of the
actual price. And the citizens of Eagle will have to pay the cost. Have you
asked the city officials what options they looked at? I can t imagine that
they didn t had an input on the proposed route.
I guess I come back to the question of whether the citizens of Eagle are
willing to pay tens of millions of dollars to bury a needed line or work
together to find an agreeable route that will have minimal impact to
property values and minimize visual impact for the community. As much
as I like underground utilities, I like my money in my own pocket more. I
would choose to explore every option from every angle before I agreed to
spend the money.
Gus
CindyJnEagle ~Posted-10/23/2004: 07:57:10
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2 Posts If you remove installation costs from the equation for just a moment...
Everyone is in absolute agreement here. These power poles and power
lines will be bad for Eagle residents and businesses. The best solution is to
bury them underground.
If we add financing back into the question, the problem is clear. Define
EXACTLY how much it will cost and figure out how to pay for it.
I like what the moderator had to say regarding Idaho Power shifting their
approach to installation of all future lines in Idaho. This problem is bigger
than Eagle. The beauty of our state is at stake.
Now , back to the real problem: the costs. If Idaho power shifts its method
of installation to underground for all installations moving forward, and we
know that these installations are more expensive, then it makes sense
that the cost of power will increase for all recipients. This will distribute
the cost of keeping our state beautiful to all Idaho residents.
The population of Idaho in 2002 was 1.3 million. If we raise rates by just
$5.00 per month , and lets say there is one bill for every two individuals
(don t forget businesses), there will be 78 MILLION DOLLARS each year to
pay for underground installations. $5.00 a month is a small price to pay
for keeping our State beautiful.
Edited by - CindylnEagle on 10/23/2004 11: 32 :42
SammyL ~ Posted - 10/23/2004: 11:20:21
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9 Posts Gus and all:
Gus, you said "I think the $5,000 000 would only be 5-100/0 of the actual
price . I've dug a little deeper and one of the other threads on this board
has a link to a statement from the Public Utilities commission. On this
statement it states that Idaho Power has given the cost for installing the
lines underground at 9.5 million. Given this , the $5 000,000 is a bit over
half of what we re talking about.
Here is the link:
http://www.puc.state.us/internet/press/O~Eagle. htm
Edited by - SammyL on 10/23/2004 11:21:23
Gus ~ Posted - 10/23/2004: 19:37:32 I!e
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4 Posts Sammy and Cindy,
Sammy I apologize for the overstatement of the cost , I didn t know how
far the line is going or what the estimated cost was. I overshot. I didn
mean to mislead anyone. So now we have a good idea how much we are
talking about as far as cost is concerned. Good work, Sammy.
Cindy there are two problems with your money calculations. First is that
Idaho Power does not serve all of Idaho residents. So Your calculations
are on the high side like I was with the guess of the cost of the line
installation. But that's ok because your thoughts carry some good
thinking. If we all agree to an increased level of service and are willing to
pay for it then great things can be done! Right now there is the Public
Utilities commission to deal with. They are notorious for some level of
social engineering. That isn t all bad-please don t misunderstand me. But
they seem to frequently refer to the little old lady who lives on a fixed
income and how an increase will affect her. (I'm nearly there in the old
and fixed income period of my life so I'm trying to prepare for that time)
As I understand the way things work for regulated utilities in Idaho, the
companies have to live by rules that the PUC lays down. If I am right
Idaho Power can t just raise the rates for any reason without the approval
of the public utilities commission. And right now I understand that the
rules require payment for this kind of project to be paid for by the city of
Eagle if they insist on unusual construction methods. And underground
transmission feed is in that category. The rules are in place now for this
situation and I don t think Idaho Power has any choice in the matter but
to follow the rules and charge Eagle for the variation in how to install the
needed feed. As far as everyone paying more for a higher level of service-
I think everyone living outside of the Boise area would be paying for their
high level of growth. Right now Eagle is is need of an expansion of the
feed to the area and Eagle citizens would benefit from the thought you put
forth. Are you (and me) ready to pay and pay for the likely upgrades
the Treasure Valley? I like my level of service and I don t like the thought
of forever paying so someone in a high growth area can benefit. If the
PUC orders Idaho Power to change and charge everyone for the changes
then OK but I would feel a bit short changed.
Gus
SammyL 00 Posted - 10/23/2004: 21:53:07 !fd
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9 Posts No problem Gus.
I agree with Cindy's post. Although her figures may be off because Idaho
Power doesn t serve all of Idaho , the overall concept is still sound. If
Idaho Power serves 250/0 percent of the state, then they also are only
responsible for new line installations in that 250/0 area. The math could
still work, only everything is on a smaller scale.
I respectfully disagree with the PUC that Eagle residents should foot the
bill themselves. Please note that the purpose of these lines is to provide
power to the city of Star, and based on what I've read complete a "loop
which will also help Idaho Power better serve parts of Boise (Hewlett
Packard area). Does it make sense that the power needs of one city justify
damage to property values and quality of life in another?
What part of Eagle do you live in? I personally would be willing to incur
increased rates if it meant our city and state would not have to suffer the
damages of these power lines.
jkramer ~ Posted - 10/25/2004: 06:43:45
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1 Posts All :
Your comments are great and I for one really appreciate the
thoughts/concerns you ve expressed.
I've only been aware of this issue for about a year now and truly believe
that everyone, including Idaho Power, needs to share in the cost of
creating more neighborhood friendly solutions to expanding power needs.
Underground is being used in so many other areas.. .it can work here too.
I understand that Id Power plans to build another substation in Eagle
somewhere around Linder/Beacon Light. I don t know what area(s)it will
ultimately supply. While there s not much else out there right now, I do
know that developers are buying up the land and making plans for new
subdivisions as I write this. I fear that our challenges with Idaho Power
are going to continue for some time to come.
Nancy Merrill told me that at least one more public hearing will be held
before something is finalized with Idaho Power and the PUC. Please check
the City of Eagle s website or 'On The Agenda' in the Local section of the
Idaho Statesman to keep in touch with weekly city council meeting
agenda topics. Meetings are every Tuesday evening...
Jane
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