PUBLIC.docx

1 SANDPOINT, IDAHO, THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2002, 6:00 P.M.
2
3
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Well, good
5 evening. This is the time and place for a public
6 hearing in Case No. GNR-W-01-1, also referred to as
7 In the matter of the investigation into whether
8 Ponderosa Terrace Estates Water System, Inc., is a
9 public utility subject to regulation by the Idaho
10 Public Utilities Commission.
11 My name is Paul Kjellander and I'll be
12 the Chairman of this evening's public hearing. To
13 my left is Commissioner Marsha Smith, and to my
14 right is Commissioner Dennis Hansen.
15 There is a sign-up sheet that has just
16 been brought up to us for those of you who have
17 requested an opportunity to present some public
18 testimony tonight. I believe there is still a sheet
19 back near the door, so if at any time if you haven't
20 signed up yet you would like to, please feel free to
21 do so.
22 Additionally, upon the completion or
23 once we've exhausted the list of those that have
24 signed up to testify this evening, we will also
25 allow those who may at that point have decided that
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 they want to provide some testimony to come forward
2 at that time. So the point is that we will try to
3 give as many possible opportunities for those of you
4 who wish to offer testimony this evening.
5 For those of you who decide even if
6 you have signed up that you no longer wish to
7 testify because perhaps maybe everything you wanted
8 to say had been said, there are also some sheets if
9 you would like to fill out and then either leave
10 those comments with us, they will become an official
11 part of the record as if you had testified publicly;
12 or you could take those back with you to your homes,
13 fill them out and mail them to the Commission. And
14 before this public hearing is over, the legal Staff
15 representing the PUC Staff will give us an
16 indication of what the deadline is for receipt of
17 those mailed-in comments.
18 And also our Web site for those of you
19 who have e-mail access will have the ability to file
20 comments in this specific case electronically, but
21 please make sure that you reference the case number
22 that I mentioned earlier this evening so that those
23 comments get appropriately directed.
24 So with that, the purpose of the
25 public hearing is to make the testimony or statement
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 from individual customers of Ponderosa Terrace
2 Estates Water Company. It is not an opportunity for
3 you to ask questions of the Company or of any of the
4 other parties in the case or the Commissioners.
5 What it is is an opportunity to provide your
6 statement, and then there will be an opportunity for
7 the parties as well as the Commissioners to ask
8 follow-up questions that we refer to as
9 cross-examination.
10 We do have a court reporter here who's
11 taking down your comments verbatim since this is an
12 official record. To kind of help clarify as to why
13 that occurs, we're a quasi-judicial body, which
14 means that we, as the Commission, act as judges in
15 this case and we develop a formal record. Once this
16 Commission has rendered its final Decision upon the
17 conclusion of these hearing processes, the testimony
18 becomes a part of the official record which could
19 therefore then be appealed to the State Supreme
20 Court. So that's why we go through the formality
21 and that's why we will move forward in this fashion
22 this evening.
23 When we call your name, I'll ask you
24 to come forward and Commissioner Smith will swear
25 you in. At that point then, the Deputy Attorney
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P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 General Lisa Nordstrom will ask you a few
2 introductory questions to get your name officially
3 on the record, and then you'll be given your
4 opportunity to provide your statement, and then
5 there will be some follow-up questions. Before we
6 get to that point though, we need to first take the
7 appearances of the formal parties, and we'll begin
8 with Ms. Nordstrom.
9 MS. NORDSTROM: Thank you. My name is
10 Lisa Nordstrom, and I'm a deputy attorney general
11 for the State of Idaho representing the Commission
12 Staff tonight.
13 Seated here at the table with me is
14 Staff engineer Michael Fuss and Staff accountant
15 Robert Smith.
16 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
17 And Mr. Cobott.
18 MR. COBOTT: My name is Robaer Cobott,
19 and I'm the owner/operator of Ponderosa Terrace
20 Estates Water System.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
22 And we're ready now to call our first witness, and
23 that will be Nora Dahlgren. Ms. Dahlgren, if you
24 would come forward? Thank you. And this seat right
25 there is where we would like you to be.
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: If you would
2 raise your right hand?
3
4 NORA J. DAHLGREN,
5 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
7
8 EXAMINATION
9
10 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
11 Q. Good evening. Please state your name
12 and spell your last for the record.
13 A. My name is Nora Dahlgren,
14 D-A-H-L-G-R-E-N.
15 Q. And what is your mailing address?
16 A. P. O. Box 193, Sagle, Idaho.
17 Q. Are you a customer of --
18 A. I am a customer of the Ponderosa
19 Water.
20 Q. Thank you. Please proceed with your
21 testimony.
22 THE WITNESS: I would like to note for
23 the record why money was not put aside for future
24 improvements in the water system, knowing that there
25 would be problems in the future and now those
241
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING DAHLGREN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 remaining customers that are on the water system
2 must pay for the problems.
3 A lot of people are going off the
4 system because they can't afford it. They can't
5 afford to have no water. Their property has become
6 nonresalable.
7 And that's all I have to say tonight.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
9 Ms. Dahlgren, for your testimony. Let's see if we
10 have some questions in cross-examination, thank
11 you. Let's begin with Ms. Nordstrom.
12 MS. NORDSTROM: None from the Staff,
13 thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay. Just
15 a moment. We have to kind of go around the room. I
16 apologize for you being the guinea pig this evening,
17 but we appreciate that.
18 Let's move now to Mr. Cobott.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. COBOTT:
23 Q. The costs that the water system has
24 incurred has been brought on by DEQ's Federal
25 standards. They made the water system bring the
242
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING DAHLGREN (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 system up to the new Federal standards. It wasn't
2 something that I implemented. If I didn't have to
3 spend the money and do what I had to do to meet the
4 Federal standards, I would have never done it, first
5 of all.
6 Secondly, I'll make this statement
7 here because there's a lot of people in here that
8 are landowners: I have just recently found out that
9 in the original subdivision Ponderosa Terrace
10 Estates, Bonner County put a restriction in there.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott,
12 this is an opportunity for you to ask questions of
13 those who provide public testimony.
14 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: Does that answer your
15 question as far as why the costs of the water system
16 went up?
17 A. No, my question really was why you
18 never made any improvements.
19 And at the time you were forced to put
20 a new well in because DEQ made you, we were without
21 water for three or four weeks, plus our water was
22 badly contaminated which made a lot of people very
23 ill out there.
24 Q. The water was never badly
25 contaminated.
243
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING DAHLGREN (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott,
2 this isn't an opportunity of which --
3 MR. COBOTT: Okay, I understand what
4 you're saying.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Merely an
6 opportunity to ask questions.
7 MR. COBOTT: When she makes a
8 statement like that, I should be able to rebuttal
9 it.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: And,
11 additionally, I need to let the witnesses know and I
12 know it's a new procedure for everyone, so please
13 don't take this as any more than just on a
14 going-forward basis an opportunity to provide a
15 statement and then to respond to direct questions,
16 not an opportunity to cross-examine the owner of the
17 Company. And I appreciate your willingness to move
18 forward in this process.
19 Are there further questions,
20 Mr. Cobott?
21 MR. COBOTT: No.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
23 Now it's the Commission's turn.
24 Are there questions from members of
25 the Commission?
244
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING DAHLGREN (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Not from me.
2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I had just one.
3
4 EXAMINATION
5
6 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
7 Q. Are you a full-time resident,
8 year-around there?
9 A. Yes, I am right now, uh-huh.
10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.
11 That's all I had.
12
13 EXAMINATION
14
15 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:
16 Q. Ms. Dahlgren, I just have one
17 question:
18 As far as the service quality today
19 with regards to the water service that's at your
20 home, are you generally satisfied with the quality
21 of the water, with the pressure, with other things
22 associated?
23 A. I could not tell -- the pressure is
24 fine.
25 I do not have any water-testing
245
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING DAHLGREN (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 results. I could not tell you what the water shows,
2 because we never get results.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. We
4 appreciate your testimony.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 (The witness left the stand.)
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's move
8 to Mr. Chuck Miller.
9
10 CHUCK MILLER,
11 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
12 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
13
14 EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
17 Q. Good evening.
18 A. Hi.
19 Q. Please state your name and spell your
20 last name for the record.
21 A. Chuck Miller, M-I-L-L-E-R.
22 Q. And what is your mailing address?
23 A. E1643 Joseph, Spokane, Washington,
24 99207.
25 Q. And are you a part-time or full-time
246
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 customer of Ponderosa Water Company?
2 A. Don't know. We've got a camper set up
3 on our lot. In the last couple, three years, we've
4 been out there two or three weekends. I disagree
5 with the part-time. I think we should be, you know,
6 labeled active service.
7 Q. Do you own a lot?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Well, with that, I'll let you
10 go ahead and make your statement.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. For one, I would
12 be more than willing to pay for a water meter,
13 installed, so we know exactly water consumption. I
14 would do that. In fact, when we first got the
15 property, I had Larry put on a frost-free spigot
16 because he said there would be no hassles. He
17 wouldn't have to turn it off in the wintertime, back
18 on in the summer, no hassles. So, you know, a water
19 meter, yeah, let's do it. You know, everybody pay
20 their fair share.
21 I live in Spokane. I hate the
22 Mariners, hate the Seattle Sonics, but my tax
23 dollars are still paying for new arenas over there.
24 So I don't know if you can equate this into the
25 water. I want to see the water system going.
247
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 There's people that live there that depend on the
2 water. We don't live there. I'd still pay to keep
3 the water going, I would, but on a part-time basis?
4 Let's do it fair.
5 Then as far as water leakage, the
6 first two winters that we were there, the spring had
7 come up, the flowers, we'd take the family out, stay
8 in the camper, no water. It's broken underneath the
9 ground someplace. Twice Larry had to come in, fix
10 the water. How much water was gone there, don't
11 know. Again, if we had water meters then, maybe we
12 would have been a little more clueful.
13 And as far as a couple -- a little bit
14 of what Larry charges the Company. Put the boy on
15 salary. I mean, he charges the Company to scrape a
16 little bit of snow so he can get a front-end loader
17 out. You know, that's absurd. I'm a supervisor.
18 If I've got a guy calling me up telling me to add
19 another half hour to his time clock because he's got
20 to scrape his windows, yeah right, no way.
21 Then, I'm not a lawyer. I work for a
22 living. Reading -- you know, my thought is turn the
23 water off. We don't use it enough to justify it,
24 okay. But then I read in the statement we got,
25 guess what, you do that, he wants to charge me 2,500
248
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 bucks to turn it back on. That's not right. That's
2 not fair.
3 Let's see. What else?
4 Anyway, I'm done at this point.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you
6 for your testimony, Mr. Miller. Why don't we move
7 to -- just going to jump around a little bit.
8 Mr. Cobott, do you have any questions of Mr. Miller?
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. COBOTT:
13 Q. Did you know that the $2,500 fee is
14 only applied if you have system removed for a period
15 of time; and this is implemented -- this is not
16 something that I came up with, this is PUC's idea?
17 Are you aware of that?
18 A. No, I wasn't. I'm only aware of what
19 I got in the mail last week.
20 Q. If I remember right, your camper, it's
21 on an incline?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And you've got some pretty
24 heavily-wooded steps going up into it on one side,
25 be the probably the south side of it you've got some
249
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 wood steps built right into the camper or something?
2 A. Leaning against the camper, yes.
3 Q. Looks from the road -- I never went up
4 there, but it looks from the road that it's ready to
5 go. Is your camper, if you drove up to your camper
6 tonight, could you open the door and go inside and
7 have electricity and water?
8 A. Tonight, no.
9 Q. Could you have water tonight?
10 A. If I hooked the hose up to the camper,
11 yes.
12 Q. But there's water; there's water
13 available.
14 See, the problem we have, we don't
15 know when you come up there and use your facility.
16 A. Bingo: Water meter.
17 Q. Well, even water meters, I appreciate
18 the fact that you think water meters are a good
19 idea. That's -- I appreciate that.
20 Anyway, I'm limited to asking you
21 questions and I can't come up with any questions,
22 so --
23 A. Okay, well here's another one: We
24 haven't received a bill for water since December.
25 You know, we don't have a clue. We've gotten this
250
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 latest statement, you know, you want 56.50. I don't
2 know what we owe you. We haven't gotten a bill.
3 Q. The way it works is if you don't owe
4 me money, you don't get a statement.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, I
6 think we're sort of getting a bit adrift here.
7 These might be good conversations for the two of you
8 during a break.
9 THE WITNESS: If he can foreclose on
10 my property because I'm six months behind because I
11 haven't gotten a bill?
12 MR. COBOTT: No. You would have --
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: What we were
14 moving into -- excuse me, gentlemen.
15 MR. COBOTT: Okay.
16 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's get
17 back to the issue at hand here, and it's an
18 opportunity to make a statement, an opportunity to
19 ask direct questions directed at the testimony
20 provided by Mr. Miller. And so I just want to make
21 sure that we stay on track, and was there a direct
22 question somewhere in there?
23 MR. COBOTT: Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay.
25 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: Are you aware,
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Mr. Miller, that according to the PUC ruling
2 starting December 1st for water charges, that the
3 Ponderosa could only charge resident owners, they
4 could not charge nonresident owners? Are you aware
5 of that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. That's the answer to your question.
8 The reason you haven't been charged: I can't charge
9 you.
10 A. Okay, but this goes back to paying a
11 fair share. I feel I need --
12 Q. I'm under the rules of PUC. I have to
13 do what they tell me to do.
14 A. Great, then refund.
15 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there
16 additional questions?
17 MR. COBOTT: No.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: What I would
19 recommend also just in terms of the proceeding if
20 there are some specific questions, if we take a
21 break this evening or at the conclusion, you may
22 want to ask those specific questions of the owner
23 and that would be an appropriate time to engage in
24 that kind of dialogue.
25 One of the difficulties we have with
252
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,C (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 the court reporter in here as well is when we get
2 people talking on top of each other, it makes it
3 very difficult to get the record established in that
4 fashion, so that's one of the reasons we're trying
5 to keep it closely defined to what the rules of
6 engagement are for a public hearing. It's not my
7 intent to try and belittle anyone in the process.
8 So, again, I guess we could move forward with that,
9 and, Mr. Cobott, you completed your questions.
10 Let's move now to Ms. Nordstrom.
11 MS. NORDSTROM: Thank you.
12
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14
15 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
16 Q. I gathered from your testimony that it
17 is your testimony that it's unfair for part-time
18 customers to pay the same amount as full-time
19 customers. Is that correct?
20 A. No. What I've got a problem with is
21 the definition of a "part-time customer," meaning a
22 dwelling that you could live 15 days out of the
23 month. So what I'd be better off doing is every
24 second weekend, move my camper out for half the
25 month. Then when I want to use it, bring it back
253
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 in. No problem. But -- so according to the
2 statement I received, if we had a pup tent, that
3 could be deemed a dwelling.
4 We have no power. We've got to bring
5 up a gasoline generator that I've dug a three-foot
6 hole behind the camper if we want to watch videos.
7 If we want water spigots down by the
8 road, we have to hook a hose up to it to get it
9 remotely close to the camper. We are not using
10 water every day.
11 On the way out, Fairfax goes, Where
12 have you been? We haven't seen you in a long time.
13 So how much water could we have used?
14 Water meter. If we use $10 worth of water, make us
15 pay $10. If we used $100 worth of water, make us
16 pay 100 bucks. Make it fair.
17 Q. So you're advocating a fee based on
18 actual usage, as opposed to a fee based on the right
19 to use?
20 A. I'm sorry, you lost me on the second
21 part.
22 Q. So you're advocating that the
23 Commission implement a fee based on how much water
24 you've actually used, as opposed to a fee for the
25 right to come in and use the water whenever you
254
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 want?
2 A. Isn't that sort of what I'm saying?
3 Yes.
4 Q. That's what I'm asking you.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's all the
7 questions I have.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there
9 questions from members of the Commission?
10 Commissioner Smith.
11
12 EXAMINATION
13
14 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
15 Q. Yes, Mr. Miller. Do you have in your
16 mind an idea of how much you believe a meter would
17 cost that you would be willing to pay? When you say
18 you think meters are a good idea and you just ought
19 to do it, do you have any ideas in your mind of what
20 is a reasonable -- what that cost would be?
21 A. If I'm forced to pay 56.50 a month and
22 the water meter shows that I haven't used that kind
23 of --
24 Q. That's not my question. You said that
25 you would be willing to pay for having a water meter
255
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 installed?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. My question is do you have in your
4 mind an idea of what you believe that amount should
5 be, a ballpark?
6 A. Should be or would be?
7 Q. A ballpark figure.
8 A. Just walking in here, $50 for a
9 three-quarter-inch, you know, 125 for a one-inch,
10 and then Fairfax saying, you know, 2-, 300 bucks.
11 Q. So in your mind, $300 to have a meter
12 installed would be a reasonable expense that you
13 would be willing to pay?
14 A. Which should dictate to the amount of
15 money that is paid for the water usage.
16 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to get to that
17 point.
18 You understand that when you have a
19 system like a water company, you have some costs
20 that are fixed. For example, they had to put in the
21 well and a tank and had installed the lines that run
22 to your house, and all that cost, that's a fixed
23 cost. It doesn't matter if anybody used, you know,
24 one gallon of water. That cost is there and they're
25 entitled to recover it.
256
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 And then you have the costs of
2 actually supplying the water -- you know, the
3 testing, the chemicals, and those -- so we call
4 those the variable costs or the costs of the
5 commodity.
6 Now, there's two different ways of
7 looking at how to recover those costs. You can take
8 all of the fixed costs and you can put it on the
9 consumption, which means that the people who use
10 more water are paying all of the costs of the
11 system, including the fixed costs of the lines that
12 run to the places where the people aren't using much
13 water; or, you can separate out some of those fixed
14 costs and put them in what we call a customer
15 charge, be some flat fee per month, and then have a
16 water fee that varies based on usage. So do you
17 have any opinion as to which way you think would be
18 fairest?
19 A. Again, I came in at the very last part
20 of the technical aspect of what we've --
21 Q. You know, that's -- I don't think
22 that -- do you have an opinion of how you think the
23 bill should be?
24 A. I'm getting there --
25 Q. Okay. Thank you.
257
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. -- really. Have some patience with
2 me.
3 Yes, I do have an opinion. Of course
4 there's going to be costs that whether you use a
5 drop or 1,000 drops, the cost is still there. I
6 have no problem with that.
7 But, coming in last part of the
8 technical session, there was numbers 50,000 gallons
9 a day, 32,000 gallons a day. Obviously, there's a
10 cost in that waste or leakage or wherever the water
11 went, so people are putting a dollar figure on that
12 as well.
13 So, to me, the way I see it, it's a
14 two-entity thing. There's a cost that this man
15 needs to continue the service going, and then
16 there's a cost of actual usage. Put that together,
17 make it fair.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19
20 EXAMINATION
21
22 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:
23 Q. Just one question from me:
24 Mr. Miller, assuming that you can't
25 get all the meters installed let's say this season
258
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 and it may take a year or two years if you did move
2 to the meter route, is there a rate option that
3 you've seen in any of the documents that have
4 been -- that you may have had an opportunity to look
5 at that seems to make sense to you as a part-time
6 user and an owner of a lot in that area?
7 A. No, I haven't seen anything like that.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Sorry.
10 Q. No, no problem. Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there
12 further questions?
13 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Miller,
15 thank you for your testimony.
16 (The witness left the stand.)
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Alan Miller.
18
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259
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 ALAN MILLER,
2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
8 Q. Good evening.
9 A. Good evening.
10 Q. Please state your name and spell your
11 last.
12 A. Alan Miller, M-I-L-L-E-R.
13 Q. And what is your mailing address?
14 A. I'm here on behalf of the Department
15 of Environmental Quality, so I'll give you that
16 address: 2110 Ironwood Parkway, Coeur d'Alene,
17 Idaho, 83814.
18 Q. Okay. And are you a customer of the
19 system?
20 A. No, I'm not.
21 Q. And just for inquiring minds, are you
22 in any way related to Chuck Miller who testified
23 before you?
24 A. No, I'm not.
25 Q. Thank you. Please proceed with your
260
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MILLER,A
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 statement.
2 THE WITNESS: The Department of
3 Environmental Quality would like to offer the
4 following statement to the Commissioners with
5 regards to the Ponderosa Terrace Estates Water
6 Company:
7 I've worked with the Ponderosa Terrace
8 Estates Water System from June of 2000 when I came
9 on to Department of Environmental Quality until
10 about January of 2002, and up to the present in a
11 more limited manner. I have observed the customers
12 of this water system go without water for an
13 extended period of time and have received their
14 complaints regarding this and a myriad of other
15 situations. To date, the DEQ has not been able to
16 find a solution to the problems that Ponderosa
17 Terrace Estates Water System faces.
18 We ask that the Commission consider
19 the following in their Decision of rate basing; I
20 basically have two points:
21 DEQ is aware that some individuals
22 have or are contemplating drilling individual wells.
23 We'd ask the Board that the Board consider the
24 ramifications of these individual wells to public
25 health given the shallow aquifer many property
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1 owners will, or may, feel produces adequate water.
2 The shallow water table, combined with a limited
3 size of many of these lots -- less than half an acre
4 in some cases -- could result in contamination of
5 these wells from the proximity of neighboring septic
6 systems. Other problems that may arise from
7 individual wells include preventing neighboring
8 property owners from building on their land. To
9 that end, DEQ hopes that the rates for services
10 won't encourage the abandonment of the public water
11 service in drilling of individual wells.
12 The other point that I have is that we
13 would ask the Commission to consider placing a limit
14 on water services at the current number at this
15 point in time. This request is based on past
16 demonstrated history of seasonal inadequate water
17 supply. Currently, the Ponderosa Terrace Estates
18 Water System relies on two wells. The shallow well,
19 which is the better producer, has effectively run
20 dry in the past. This situation is what
21 necessitated drilling of the second well, which is
22 deep but a very low producer. Until such time as
23 the water system can accurately document that the
24 current water supply is adequate on a year-round
25 basis, that DEQ ask that no additional connections
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1 be allowed.
2 DEQ and myself recognize there's no
3 easy solutions to the problems faced by the
4 residents on the water system. We recognize that
5 the water system does not have enough connections to
6 be a viable entity. And we do thank the Commission
7 for its efforts towards a fair and equitable
8 solution.
9 That's all I have.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
11 Mr. Miller. Let's move to Ms. Nordstrom. Any
12 questions?
13 MS. NORDSTROM: Thank you.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16
17 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
18 Q. I took your statement to mean that
19 because of seasonal deficiencies within the current
20 wells, that one or both could run dry. Is that
21 correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. If that were to happen, would that
24 pose a threat to the continued service of the
25 existing customers?
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1 A. Absolutely. I'm sorry?
2 Q. It's my understanding that this hasn't
3 been a problem since the second well has been
4 drilled. Is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Even with this second --
7 MR. KEN HINDS: I'll state that is not
8 true. We ran out last year twice.
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Sir. Sir.
10 Sir, I think it's important to recognize that if
11 you'd like to testify we could bring you up, but we
12 have to maintain a degree of decorum here. So,
13 please, if we can confine the comments to the
14 question and answer, and we certainly will allow you
15 an opportunity to comment and would hope you would
16 do so.
17 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge -- and I
18 believe that there are some limited exceptions that
19 I've been made aware of, short-duration
20 exceptions -- the system has not run out of water
21 since the second well was drilled. There are
22 aspects of the location of an individual's
23 property. Elevationally in the subdivision certain
24 people run out first, and so they are more
25 susceptible to short-term durations of problems.
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1 Q. BY MS. NORDSTROM: It's my
2 understanding that while the last two years have
3 been pretty dry in the Southern part of the state,
4 that waterfall averages have been relatively close
5 to normal up in the North. Is that correct?
6 A. For this year that we are in, that
7 would be correct.
8 Last year was -- it's a difficult
9 situation. Last year the water -- the snowpack was
10 fairly close to normal but the runoff was very
11 rapid, and consequently a drought effectively
12 occurred.
13 Q. You mentioned that you were requesting
14 that the Commission not allow any additional
15 customers to the system without some further
16 information. What information do you recommend that
17 the Commission receive before making that kind of
18 decision?
19 A. There was in 1999 I believe it was,
20 the water system had an engineer come in and do an
21 engineering report as part of a requirement of
22 DEQ's. That report, while I certainly don't believe
23 it's inaccurate, was based on the moment when it was
24 taken as far as what the source produced, which was
25 in June or July. It was done very rapidly in
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1 regards to DEQ's requirements. I think given the --
2 the deep well is probably not a concern with running
3 dry. Unfortunately, it's also a very low-production
4 well, would not produce enough to carry the
5 community as it sits on its own. The shallow well
6 fluctuates or may fluctuate a great deal in the
7 course of a year.
8 I think simply we need some form of
9 documentation as to what takes place. Now, that may
10 include nothing more than monitoring the water
11 table, which can be done fairly simply or can be
12 very complex depending on what's chosen, but
13 monitoring the depth of the water table over the
14 course of a year on a periodic basis. Wells could
15 be pump tested. We really have no accurate
16 information other than the original drilling records
17 of the wells, and those can be fairly subjective.
18 So, I think what we're asking for is
19 that until we have a pretty solid feel where things
20 are, that we not create a situation which only
21 exasperates the existing owners' situation. And I
22 do realize the ramification of that is that it
23 denies Mr. Cobott and the water system what is quite
24 possibly the needed capital revenues to make certain
25 improvements. That's -- that's the very unfortunate
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1 situation of this water system is that there isn't a
2 simple answer to those problems.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. NORDSTROM: Staff has no further
5 questions.
6 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9
10 BY MR. COBOTT:
11 Q. It's your knowledge that the -- ever
12 since the second well has been put in, there has
13 been no water outages. Is that correct?
14 A. No, I've been made aware of water
15 outages.
16 Q. Since the second well?
17 A. Yes. These were not of long duration
18 and they were not throughout the community, but they
19 were outages at the upper end.
20 Q. Were you aware of the time that it was
21 knocked out because of Avista Electric?
22 A. I was aware of that, yes. Yes.
23 Q. That was the only --
24 A. When the piping was physically broken
25 because of Avista coming through, I was made aware
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1 of that, yes. And these complaints did not arise
2 from that situation.
3 Q. Well the system has not been out of
4 water, I don't care what anybody said.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott.
6 MR. COBOTT: Okay, I understand. I
7 understand.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
9 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: What -- when you refer
10 to rate basis, what do you mean by that?
11 A. Meaning in the regards to not --
12 Define your question. I'm not sure.
13 Q. Well, if you can't hook up any more
14 connections to the water system, what are you basing
15 that on? Have you got reports? Have you got some
16 form of some information, like PUC has information
17 here, detailed information on how many landowners it
18 will support on a full-time basis. Do you have that
19 information?
20 A. I have the same information.
21 Q. But you disagree with PUC's report?
22 A. I don't disagree with the report
23 because the information that that report was based
24 on is -- I don't disagree with the information it
25 was based on, therefore, I don't disagree with the
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1 information that they derive from that basis. Does
2 that make sense?
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. Okay. Where our stance is coming from
5 is the fact that I dealt with your customers for an
6 extended period of time who did not have water. I
7 wish not to see that situation occur again. If it
8 were to occur again as a result of additional
9 connections having been made, then I don't think
10 that's a fair situation to the existing customers.
11 Q. Then how do you expect the water
12 system to support itself?
13 A. Herein lies the realm. I'm not saying
14 that the water system should never have additional
15 connections. What I'm saying is that the
16 information that the PUC's report was based on was
17 the best available information. What I'm saying is
18 that I think we need better information. And the
19 amount of effort it takes to derive it is not
20 extreme, but it has to be deriven over a long period
21 of time. In other words, if I come and measure the
22 water table in your shallow well in May right after
23 the melt, it may seem like you have a great deal of
24 water. I could run a pump test on the pump, and
25 perhaps the pump puts out X amount of water and it
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1 says you could have this many connections based on
2 that. Well, that's all based on a snapshot, that's
3 a moment in time, and that's the basis of some of
4 the information that -- the best information that we
5 have available.
6 What I'm saying is that we need
7 information that spans an entire year or more to
8 determine is there seasonal variability in this
9 aquifer in the depths of the water.
10 Q. How are you going to explain this
11 water system being shut down for lack of revenue to
12 operate because of your request?
13 A. Prior to increasing the rates, what
14 were the rates? Prior to your increase of
15 approximately a year ago, what were the existing
16 rates?
17 Q. A year ago? They were 10.85 for
18 nonresident and 18.85 for resident.
19 A. Okay. That was close to what memory
20 served.
21 Q. Was I made to conform to the new
22 Federal standards imposed by DEQ on my water
23 system? Did I have to send -- did I have to sign a
24 Consent Order to do all this to bring the water
25 system up to Federal standards or else, and I had a
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1 time period to get it done?
2 A. Yeah, essentially, because you had not
3 been -- the water system had not been maintained up
4 to Federal standards. Had that monitoring and
5 testing and work been done all along --
6 Q. Had the water system been operating
7 all these years?
8 A. We're not really comparing apples and
9 apples.
10 Q. Is it your opinion then that I -- I
11 wanted to spend all this money to bring it up to
12 Federal standards?
13 A. Absolutely not.
14 Q. Is it in your opinion that I was going
15 to get any better water conditions or service the
16 customers any better by imposing all of these extra
17 things that I had to do to bring it up to Federal
18 conditions?
19 A. I'll answer your question, then I'll
20 follow you with a question.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Excuse me.
22 Just respond to the question. It's not an
23 opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Cobott.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay.
25 Can you repeat the question for me
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1 then? My apologies.
2 COMMISSIONER SMITH: We can have the
3 court reporter --
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Why don't we
5 have the court reporter read that back to us.
6 (Whereupon, the requested portion
7 of the record was read by the court reporter.)
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I believe it
9 would.
10 I'll speak generally of the public as
11 a whole. The public entrusts their public water
12 system to provide them with safe, quality water.
13 They feel that it's important enough that they
14 actually have an entire layer to assure that that
15 actually happens. That layer is what I work in. It
16 would please me to no end for all water systems to
17 operate so primely that I didn't need a job; I'd
18 have no problem finding another.
19 Not monitoring their water, not
20 meeting the standards, means that your customers are
21 not aware of what it is they're drinking. They have
22 no assurance because they have no information to
23 know what's going on.
24 Some of what you monitor for is what's
25 known as chronic -- or, is known as acute or
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1 short-term health effects. It's monitored monthly.
2 And at that, it only means that at that particular
3 moment in time, the water was or was not passing any
4 median standards.
5 Other monitoring that you do is for
6 chronic health effects, long-term health effects,
7 cancer, various other things.
8 Yes, I think your customers deserve to
9 know that water meets the standards and expectations
10 so that if they were to live their for all their
11 life, they wouldn't end up with a potential for a
12 long-term health disease.
13 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: This water system has
14 been in effect since 1969 or '70.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Was the water system ever approached
17 prior to DEQ's getting in touch with the water
18 system about the new Federal standards?
19 A. I can't speak for that.
20 Q. Couple years ago?
21 A. I wasn't here, so I honestly cannot
22 answer your question because I have no idea. Excuse
23 me. There is documentation in the file going back
24 quite a ways that in the early 1980s, communication
25 with the water system.
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1 Q. There was communication, yes, but
2 nothing about bringing the water system up to
3 Federal standards.
4 That's all my questions.
5 A. Okay.
6 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
7 Are there questions from members of
8 the Commission?
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Oh, Mr. Chairman,
10 just a comment that the Commission regulates the
11 utilities that the law tells us we regulate.
12 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
13 COMMISSIONER SMITH: And we don't
14 regulate permitting of wells, drilling of wells, who
15 can do it, when they can do it, and what they can
16 do. So, we're looking at the financial needs of the
17 Utility in order that it can provide adequate, safe,
18 and reliable service to its customers.
19 THE WITNESS: I understand.
20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay. Thank you.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
22 Mr. Miller. We appreciate your testimony.
23 (The witness left the stand.)
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Ken
25 Hinds.
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1 Mr. Hinds, please raise your right
2 hand.
3
4 KEN HINDS,
5 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
7
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
9 Ms. Nordstrom.
10
11 EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
14 Q. Good evening. Please state your name
15 and spell your last.
16 A. Ken Hinds, H-I-N-D-S.
17 Q. And what is your mailing address?
18 A. 247 West Whispering Pines, Sagle.
19 Q. And are you a customer of the
20 Ponderosa Water Company?
21 A. Currently.
22 Q. And please proceed with your
23 testimony.
24 THE WITNESS: I'll go back to Alan
25 Miller's comment about the quality of water and
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1 before he -- they came in, my parents couldn't drink
2 the water because everytime they did, they got sick
3 off of it.
4 And going back to another comment
5 about leaks, when Larry was gone on vacation about a
6 year and a half ago Ron -- I don't know his last
7 name -- took over the system, and when he was there,
8 he noted four areas of leaking water, and until this
9 winter none of them had been fixed. One finally
10 came to the surface, and one of the gentlemen here
11 that was going to be here tonight is not asked the
12 question.
13 It was indicated it was a spring.
14 He says, Well, just test the water.
15 If it's got chlorine in it, it's a leaking water
16 system.
17 And that's one of the spots that was
18 finally fixed this winter.
19 Regarding the use of the tremendous
20 amount of water that's used up there, I think
21 Mike Fuss has been around. There aren't yards,
22 there aren't -- and the amount of water that is used
23 is lost in the ground. The system is pumping
24 probably three times more water than it's ever used
25 in this system. That's just because of this one
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1 leak. There was a four-inch stream coming down the
2 middle of the road this winter. And this other
3 person noted there were three other areas of
4 leakage. And that's a couple comments on that.
5 I feel to the Commission that when we
6 sent in our recommendations on some rate
7 adjustments, they were totally ignored regarding
8 phone, other costs, in making up the rate basis.
9 And also in one of the things here, I
10 read that it was furnished about $100 rental for the
11 piece of machinery, which there is no documentation
12 of ownership. You're allowing $100 a month rental
13 on that and Mr. Cobott has no papers to say it's
14 his. I was told it was somebody else's. But with
15 documentation, then fine; without documentation, you
16 don't include those in your cost, they don't belong
17 there.
18 And on the phone bill thing, that was
19 one of the specific things we mentioned. We came up
20 with a cost considerably lower than you're allowing,
21 and we don't feel that's fair.
22 Regarding the drilling of the well, I
23 think, unfortunately, Mr. Cobott chose the wrong
24 person to drill his well. There's another well
25 driller who would guarantee up to 500 feet for
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1 $7,000, and I believe he paid the gentleman $20,000
2 according to what's in these papers. Unfortunately,
3 I think he just chose the wrong well driller and he
4 got burned, along with everybody else who's on the
5 water system.
6 And I did do -- make one more
7 statement regarding Alan Miller. I did check
8 yesterday. The water system still is not approved
9 by the DEQ, so I don't see how you can justify the
10 rates you're charging when it is not an approved
11 system.
12 Anyway, there were some other -- oh, I
13 did just a brief check of some of the people in the
14 area, what they felt was a fair cost, and they --
15 actually it was kind of interesting because it's
16 what the landowners submitted to the Commission as
17 being fair, and it came out on the fair side was --
18 actually came out $30 per person, per household.
19 Maximum was 35.20. They felt that was fair. And it
20 used to be, like Mr. Cobott said, 18.85 until he
21 drilled a new well.
22 And there was a comment of
23 Marsha Smith there regarding fixed costs to this
24 other gentleman, and I think the Commission has
25 already figured that all these fixed costs from all
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1 those years ago has already been depreciated out, so
2 all we're dealing with is current fixed costs or
3 repairs to the system, not past fixed costs. So
4 those other costs don't apply now.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay. Does
6 that conclude your general statement?
7 THE WITNESS: One other thing: The
8 breakout in Mr. Fuss's comments in his testimony
9 that I received said it was too cumbersome to tier
10 this into full-time, part-time, on down the line.
11 That's no problem. You just set up a computer and
12 it's done. It's no cumbersome system to bill on
13 various levels.
14 And I guess I had one other thing:
15 Water meters are only about 100, $120 you can buy
16 them for, so if a customer wanted to buy one, put
17 one in, it doesn't cost 3- or $500 to have one in.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Does that
19 complete your statement?
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it will.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
22 Ms. Nordstrom, any questions for
23 Mr. Hinds?
24 MS. NORDSTROM: Yes, thank you.
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
4 Q. You mentioned that -- the informal
5 poll that you took of some of the residents
6 indicated that most people thought a $30 per
7 household rate was appropriate?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Was that for --
10 A. I'll just say the low was 28, the high
11 was 40.
12 Q. Okay. So was that for people who had
13 like a house on the lot, or was that just for any
14 lot regardless of whether or not there was a
15 dwelling?
16 A. That was just the household residents.
17 Q. Okay. Okay.
18 A. There were not -- one was a part-time
19 resident, the rest were all full-time residents, no
20 empty lots.
21 Q. And when you mentioned that water
22 meters cost approximately $120, does that include
23 the labor to install them or just the meter itself?
24 A. No, that's just the meter.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. And it doesn't cost another $180 to
2 put a water meter in.
3 Q. What is your estimate of the labor
4 that is appropriate?
5 A. Two hours.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. It'd take you, in fact, with a
8 backhoe, it should take you maybe at most an hour.
9 You dig it up, you attach it, you fill it back in.
10 That's it. And you're doing -- if you're doing
11 several a time, you're just going right down the
12 street. I'll say an hour is well in excess of what
13 it should take.
14 Q. Okay. I know that Staff's comments
15 adopted the recommendations of the residents as
16 Option No. 5, I believe it was, and that was
17 something that Staff considered in making its
18 recommendation. But could you explain what, in
19 particular, about the phone charges that you were
20 concerned about?
21 A. We just took a phone rate and then
22 added -- it's stated in there -- some long distance
23 charges and came up with a number which is
24 considerably less. Just the flat charge for what --
25 we took -- looked at a phone bill, took a flat
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1 monthly fixed rate, then added some long distance, I
2 think it was $50. I mean, right now he has had a
3 lot of long distance calls to talk to the
4 Commission, talk to DEQ, that's without going --
5 without saying -- but on a normal year when this is
6 over with, those costs aren't there.
7 Q. Now, if I recall correctly, there was
8 some concern that there were multiple businesses --
9 A. There are.
10 Q. -- on this line.
11 A. There's household, there's this
12 business, and another business.
13 Q. And that's why you recommended --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- a lower rate.
16 Okay. Thank you. No further
17 questions.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay. Thank
19 you.
20 Mr. Cobott.
21
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23
24 BY MR. COBOTT:
25 Q. Are you aware that the system has been
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1 approved by DEQ?
2 A. No, it hasn't, because I checked with
3 them yesterday.
4 Q. Well, it's sure funny. I've got a
5 letter.
6 A. Well according to their computer
7 records -- and I talked to Tony Davis -- the system
8 has not been approved.
9 Q. I can't say any more because I can
10 only ask you questions. It's an approved system.
11 A. Alan --
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's kind
13 of keep everything this direction.
14 THE WITNESS: He's the one that can
15 say "yes" or "no." But anyway, when I checked
16 yesterday, checked with their office, the answer was
17 no, it had not been finalized and approved.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott,
19 additional questions?
20 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: You say that we have a
21 massive amount of water leakage. What are you
22 basing this on?
23 A. Well, how about the one that was fixed
24 by Larry this winter.
25 Q. What are you basing this on?
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1 A. Well, there was a four-inch stream of
2 water coming out, and that had been noted a year and
3 a half ago before it came to the surface.
4 Q. Are you aware that our flow meters say
5 that we use about 8,000 gallons a day during the
6 winter, and in the summertime, spring and summer, it
7 jumps all the way to 25- to 30,000, and then in the
8 winter again it goes back down? Are you aware of
9 that? If there's that big a leak, would it show?
10 A. Well, how many people -- at 200
11 gallons per household, how many gallons do you think
12 we use? That's 4,000.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: This is
14 becoming just a little argumentative. Ask one
15 question, allow him to respond, you can ask a second
16 question.
17 Q. BY MR. COBOTT: Are you aware what PUC
18 says the average household usage is?
19 A. If they have yards and everything
20 else, yes.
21 Q. Are you aware of the number of
22 gallons?
23 A. I think it's 400.
24 Q. You better look again.
25 A. Four hundred was the number I was
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1 told. And that's with yards and everything else,
2 not without yards.
3 Q. As far as the excavator, are you
4 saying that I do not have a deed to the excavator?
5 A. It says in this statement there's no
6 documentation for it. That's from the PUC.
7 Q. Is there deeds on heavy equipment?
8 A. There should be a title.
9 Q. Is there a title on heavy equipment?
10 A. I would think you would have a
11 documentation that you own it.
12 Q. I do own it.
13 A. Well, that is word of mouth, and I'd
14 like to see documentation.
15 Q. You won't see it.
16 A. Well then I don't think -- if you
17 can't produce it, they shouldn't allow it.
18 Q. Phone costs. Are you aware how much
19 phone cost is a month, basic phone?
20 A. Well, let's see, I've called you I
21 think 13 times and you've never answered one of my
22 phone calls.
23 Q. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I've never talked to you on the phone?
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P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. You have by accident.
2 Q. Oh, by accident?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. I've got no other -- let me see here.
5 A. And especially when we had the water
6 outage in '99. I called you I don't know how many
7 times and never got a return phone call.
8 Q. I put in a well, that's correct. Are
9 you aware that I put in a complete chlorination
10 system?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How come you didn't mention that?
13 A. I knew you put it in.
14 Q. You mentioned I put in a well is all I
15 put in. You didn't mention the chlorination system,
16 the new wellhouse, the pipes going up to the
17 mountain, did you?
18 A. I know you did those things.
19 Q. Why didn't you mention them then?
20 A. I just made comment about being taken
21 by the well driller, which I think you did, to the
22 detriment of all the home owners and the other
23 people who are out there on the water system.
24 Q. I have no further comments on this
25 hostile witness.
286
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING HINDS (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Hostility is
2 a two-way street, Mr. Cobott.
3 MR. COBOTT: That's fine. I'll make
4 my point.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay. Are
6 there questions from members of the Commission?
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No, thank you.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Hinds,
9 thank you very much for providing your testimony
10 this evening.
11 (The witness left the stand.)
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We have
13 another witness signed up, Mr. James Costello.
14
15 JAMES COSTELLO,
16 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
17 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
18
19 EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
22 Q. Good evening.
23 A. Good evening.
24 Q. Please state your name and spell your
25 last.
287
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. My name is James Costello,
2 C-O-S-T-E-L-L-O.
3 Q. And what is your mailing address?
4 A. Mailing address is Post Office Box
5 931, Sagle, Idaho, 83860.
6 Q. And are you a customer of the
7 Ponderosa Water System?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. Please proceed with your statement.
10 THE WITNESS: I recently became a
11 customer of Ponderosa Terrace Estates Water System,
12 Incorporated, and have paid my first two months'
13 bill, which I requested and I received from
14 Mr. Cobaer (sic), and I'm very thankful that he has
15 done that because I understand that he has not sent
16 other people -- this is hearsay -- statements and
17 he's been very fair with me so far. I have nothing
18 derogatory against him so far.
19 However, I've been living there for
20 approximately four years and the water quality --
21 first, if I might state my background. I have been
22 in the business of water sanitation, pumps,
23 equipment, plumbing, and what have you, for over 15
24 years, and the quality of water which has come out
25 of there since I have been there is very poor.
288
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 The sanitizer which is in the water is
2 not regulated properly. It is sometimes way above
3 the scale, sometimes there is no sanitizer
4 whatsoever in there.
5 It seems to me on certain times there
6 will be an excessive amount of what we call
7 chloramines, which is used-up chlorine, which only
8 tells me that they have had a problem. The water is
9 cloudy, which indeed it is upon certain times.
10 There is bacteria growth in the water, so therefore,
11 they have to combat it by dumping in large,
12 excessive amounts of chlorine, fast-acting chlorine,
13 in order to shock treat the water to get it back up
14 to proper sanitization levels which they can take
15 after that. Another more viable chlorine which
16 stays in the system longer and prevents bacterial
17 growth, which is not being happened -- is not
18 happening.
19 Back in the time when I was working in
20 the evenings, the water was only turned on for a
21 couple hours a day. Most of the time the water was
22 on, I was at work. I could not wash my clothes. I
23 could not water my animals. I could not take a
24 shower. I couldn't do anything which my family
25 needs in order to be healthy.
289
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 I had to put in my own system, not a
2 well, mind you, but a small 55-gallon water drum and
3 a submersible pump which I force-fed back into the
4 system so I could get a small trickle of water to
5 take a shower. Most of the water of the 55 gallons
6 went back into the system and went down the hill to
7 somebody else.
8 I feel that water meters would be a
9 good idea. It's the only true way to tell whether
10 or not there is a, indeed, a leak in the system or
11 several leaks or what have you.
12 I know for a fact that the maintenance
13 person -- and I use that word very loosely -- I've
14 told him in the past several times about a leak and
15 he ignores it and says, I'll get around to it when I
16 have the time. Right now, I've got my business to
17 attend to.
18 And then other statements like, I
19 don't get paid enough to jump things -- jump on
20 things right away.
21 I know for a fact because of my
22 education and experience that he is not testing the
23 water daily like he should.
24 A reasonable rate? It's hard to say.
25 He's incurred a lot of costs. I don't feel that --
290
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 I mean, it's an investment. He puts in a water
2 system, he expects to benefit from selling water to
3 people, I have no objection to that; but, you can't
4 expect to demand money from a bunch of people just
5 because you've made an error in your judgment or
6 haven't followed up with your plans to have a water
7 system which is capable of giving water to everybody
8 with quality.
9 It's a rough decision, that's why it's
10 in your hands, but evidently somebody is not doing
11 their job. Somebody is being very greedy, and what
12 can I say?
13 I'm new in the area and I will pay my
14 bills, I will accept anybody's decision, but this
15 haggling and everything is for the birds and it's --
16 it's not doing anybody's blood pressure any good.
17 And I've offered many times to, during
18 the time when they had no water and I had no water,
19 to go help them out, to help them out with their
20 pumps, their systems. I've got nothing but lies:
21 Oh, you can't. I won't let you look
22 at my equipment.
23 Flow meters -- change the subject a
24 little bit -- flow meters can be tampered with;
25 chlorinization records can be tampered with.
291
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Anybody can walk in there and write it down on the
2 sheet and say chlorine's three parts per million or
3 whatever the water system nowdays must have. It is
4 so easy to do. The reason it generally gets out of
5 whack is by neglect, not caring.
6 I understand the maintenance person
7 has another business. He doesn't have time to do
8 this, I understand that, but let's get somebody in
9 here to do it. I'll do it. I'd be more than happy
10 to take care of your water system for you. I've
11 been a building contractor for over 30 years. I've
12 worked for Sandpoint Remodel and Paint. We have a
13 very good reputation for honesty and quality
14 control.
15 And that's about all I have to say
16 right now.
17 Water meters: Good deal.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
19 Mr. Costello. If we could have you stay put for a
20 moment, we'll see if there's some questions. Let's
21 move first to Ms. Nordstrom.
22 MS. NORDSTROM: Thank you.
23
24
25
292
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
4 Q. Do you live on your lot full-time?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And do you have a feeling as what --
7 as to what would be a reasonable rate for the
8 Commission to set?
9 A. My feelings on the rate can only go by
10 what I have paid in the past in several different
11 places all over the United States and other places.
12 I understand that the City of Sandpoint, which is
13 our closest neighbor to speak of, is charging
14 approximately $48 or so, and they get water, sewer,
15 and garbage. I'd even be willing to pay the 48
16 bucks, but that's -- where's the sewer and the
17 garbage? So --
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Thirty is fine, you know, I'll go 30.
20 I'd prefer to have the 18 that it was when my
21 landlord was paying it, but he's incurred some
22 things and whatever, but I don't want to get bent
23 over with a 55-gallon drum of Vasoline, thank you.
24 Q. Thank you. No further questions.
25 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
293
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Mr. Cobott.
2 MR. COBOTT: Yeah.
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5
6 BY MR. COBOTT:
7 Q. If you're a resident there and you've
8 been there for four years, how come I haven't got
9 paid?
10 A. Because my landlord, who was
11 Daryl Duke, evidently wasn't paying you. It was his
12 responsibility due to our contract, which stated
13 that he was to pay for the water and I was to pay
14 him rent. That's why you haven't gotten paid,
15 evidently.
16 Q. So the way it looks then, I'm out?
17 A. Well, unless you want to contact
18 Mr. Duke, and I have no idea, because he had his
19 property foreclosed upon and I bought it from
20 Fannie Mae.
21 Q. What type of testing equipment do you
22 use to test this water in your home to come up with
23 these accusations that you're coming up with?
24 A. Well, I have a test kit which you
25 sample water and it shows chlorine, chloramines, pH,
294
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 alkalinity, and the calcium content.
2 Q. Is that a spa tester?
3 A. That could be used for spas, it could
4 be used for public utility water, it could be used
5 for swimming pools, it could be used for --
6 Q. Is that an acceptable tester for
7 public water, approved by DEQ?
8 A. It's an acceptable tester for public
9 water when it comes to chlorine and sanitizer, yes,
10 most definitely. There does not show any biological
11 or bacterial, it shows nothing of that. I don't
12 whip out my microscope and stick it under there and
13 see all the little wigglies that are in there
14 because there shouldn't be any if there is any
15 available, which means chlorine, which can kill
16 bacteria, if there is any available chlorine in your
17 water, there is nothing living in it, no bacterial
18 organisms whatsoever.
19 Q. Are you aware that that particular lot
20 could and probably does have problems with the pipe
21 going from the road into the house?
22 A. If it has problems, I think that
23 should have been fixed long ago.
24 Q. Do you think it's the Water Company's
25 responsibility to fix a pipe on somebody's property?
295
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. On somebody's property, if they're
2 providing me water, up until where it gets to my
3 property, it is, indeed, your responsibility.
4 Anything to where it meets my property into my
5 house, which there is no leaks, it is my
6 responsibility.
7 Q. Well, I think you better check your
8 piping.
9 A. Indeed, I have.
10 Q. I know the people that put that in
11 years ago.
12 A. Indeed, I have.
13 Q. Yeah?
14 A. I'm a responsible person, sir. I take
15 my life and my family very seriously.
16 Q. Prior to the reports that you gave
17 about running out of water and this and that, was
18 that prior to the second well being installed and
19 operational?
20 A. Some of it was prior and some of it
21 was immediately afterwards.
22 Q. When you say, "immediately
23 afterwards," how immediate afterwards?
24 A. At this point in time, I don't recall.
25 It's been since I guess 1999.
296
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Q. So it's in your opinion then after the
2 second well was installed, you had problems again
3 and the chlorination system?
4 A. Actually, I've -- I had more problems
5 with the lack of chlorine and the bacterial growth,
6 which I was sent a letter by I forget who it was
7 saying that we had chloroform bacteria -- coliform
8 bacteria -- in the water. And from that day on
9 since the water has been cloudy and it smells bad
10 due to the excessive amount of chlorines in the
11 water, I haven't drank it. My animals are sick.
12 The only thing I drink out of that water is coffee,
13 which I boil thoroughly. I will not put that in my
14 pets' or my family's mouths.
15 Q. Are you aware that we have five or six
16 different locations that we take tests from?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 Q. Well then if you are saying that your
19 water is so bad, so badly chlorined, how come the
20 test results aren't showing it?
21 A. Well, there's two different tests you
22 take. One test is for chlorine. Okay, that's your
23 sanitizer in the water. You do agree with that?
24 Okay.
25 Chlorine tests will show chlorine, it
297
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 will not show available chlorine. It will just
2 show, yes, indeed, there is chlorine in the water.
3 Just because there's chlorine in the water does not
4 mean that it is sanitized. You have bound-up
5 chlorine or used-up chlorine which registers on your
6 chlorine test which is what Larry uses that shows,
7 indeed, that there is chlorine. It doesn't show
8 that that chlorine is available to be used unless
9 you take another test.
10 Q. Are you aware of a free chlorine test?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know what free chlorine test
13 means?
14 A. Yes. That is the available chlorine
15 to be used as a sanitizer in your water.
16 Q. Free chlorine test means the amount of
17 chlorine that's left in the water after the water
18 has been chlorinated, and we are required to keep
19 that within a certain parameter.
20 A. Correct, you are.
21 Q. That's not what you stated.
22 A. No, it's not. It's absolutely not
23 what I'm stating. I'm stating --
24 Q. You know more than what I know or what
25 DEQ knows or PUC knows as far as water testing goes?
298
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. DEQ, PUC, or whatever, no, I don't
2 probably know more; but I'll guarantee you, I know
3 more than you do.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, that's
5 about as far as we're going to go with that kind of
6 rhetoric back and forth. Is there an additional
7 question that we can get to or does that exhaust
8 your questions?
9 MR. COBOTT: That exhausts my
10 questions of this witness.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
12 Are there questions from members of the Commission?
13 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No, thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Costello,
15 thank you for your attendance and your comments this
16 evening.
17 (The witness left the stand.)
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: At this
19 point, we've exhausted the list of those who wish to
20 testify. I'll ask if there's anyone else that
21 wishes to testify, this would be the opportunity to
22 come forward and be sworn in and do so.
23 Yes, ma'am, please come forward.
24
25
299
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COSTELLO (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 LINDA GUGLIELMETTI,
2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
8 Q. Good evening.
9 A. Hi.
10 Q. Please state your name and spell your
11 last name.
12 A. Linda Guglielmetti,
13 G-U-G-L-I-E-L-M-E-T-T-I.
14 Q. Wow, that's quite a name. And what is
15 your mailing address?
16 A. P.O. Box 389, Sagle, Washington -- or,
17 Sagle, Idaho, sorry.
18 Q. And are you a customer of Ponderosa
19 Water Company?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Please proceed with your statement.
22 THE WITNESS: Approximately six years
23 ago we purchased the property that we now have a
24 home on, and in our deed, the title company
25 indicated that utilities was provided: Electricity,
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 phone, and water. We sold our home in Washington
2 and moved up here on the faith -- good faith -- that
3 the title company was correct. We had built our
4 home, and in the last five years every single summer
5 we've had problems with water:
6 No water. There was a time before the
7 second well we were four months without water. Now,
8 we live up on the ridge so we lose water first. The
9 people down in the flat part, they get water a
10 little longer than we do.
11 But then the water came on after
12 considerable complaints to DEQ, and water was turned
13 on two hours a day, between 5:00 and 7:00 in the
14 evening, and in that time we were able to shower or
15 whatever. We fortunately had friends that we were
16 able to go to their homes and use their water.
17 Since then, we have had problems with
18 our plumbing. We couldn't get water -- water
19 pressure to come out of our pipes so we called in a
20 plumber, only to find that there was so much debris
21 in the filters of the little faucets. There were
22 pine needles, there were PVC shavings, there were
23 all kinds of debris in the little traps.
24 So then we went to the expense of
25 putting in a filtration system in our home, so that
301
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 way all that debris that was supposedly coming
2 through the pipes would be caught.
3 As a result of running out of water,
4 we decided what we would do -- and I will say that
5 we are fortunate enough that we are one of the few
6 that have been able to do this; people in the lower
7 area of our -- of our little community can't afford
8 to do what we did -- but we put in a 2,100-gallon
9 reservoir, and as a result, we were able to hold or
10 maintain some water, so that way if the system did
11 shut down, we would have water to fall back on.
12 We buy water to drink. We do not
13 drink the water in the system. I've had
14 construction workers go to turn on the faucet to
15 take a drink only to spit it out immediately, say
16 it's the worst-tasting water they've ever had. The
17 water smells. We've had a couple reports where
18 E. coli was in the water and other bacterias, so
19 therefore, we don't drink the water at all. I only
20 use it for bathing and that's about it.
21 So when you buy a piece of property
22 and you check into the utilities, things that are
23 provided so that you don't have problems like this,
24 it's kind of discouraging to find out that we didn't
25 have water, it's not good water, and I feel that --
302
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 that we were sold a piece of property with faulty
2 information.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Does that
4 complete your statement?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, as far as the
6 billing goes, billing -- billings are not -- have
7 not been, in recent months, on a monthly basis.
8 Ever since Public Utilities said it would be $20 a
9 month, we received no bills at all. Then last month
10 we did receive a bill and it was for back -- back
11 pay because we weren't sure, are we supposed to pay
12 60, are we supposed to pay 20? We weren't getting a
13 bill, we weren't sure, so we said, We won't pay a
14 water bill until we receive one and know what our
15 water bill is. And we did get one last month and we
16 have paid it, but up until then, there were several
17 months -- I think December was our last or
18 November -- November was our last billing until last
19 month.
20 And I do know of a resident down the
21 hill who did not receive a bill for five years and
22 then was told that she owed $5,000 payable in a week
23 or her water would be shut off, and it was shut off.
24 We have people down below that have
25 eight children. We have pregnant women down below.
303
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 They cannot be without water. And the threat is
2 always there that, If you don't pay or you don't
3 follow my rules, your water is shut off.
4 And there is no recourse for these
5 people. They can't afford a lawyer. All they have
6 to do is comply to Mr. Robott's (sic) -- Cobott's
7 demands, and I don't think that's fair for those
8 people.
9 I think that's the end of my
10 statement.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
12 Let's move now to questions.
13 Ms. Nordstrom, do you have any
14 questions?
15 MS. NORDSTROM: Yes, thank you.
16
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
20 Q. Did you get a copy of the Commission's
21 Order from June 6th? Are you on the mailing list?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We tried to get all the customers on
24 the mailing list and I don't know if we succeeded,
25 so that's encouraging.
304
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Did you understand from reading the
2 Order that for the months that bills were not sent
3 out, that you'll have that many months to pay back
4 the $20 a month that weren't previously billed for
5 if you so choose and make arrangements with
6 Mr. Cobott?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Okay. So do you understand the
9 procedure from this point out to catch up on the
10 months that weren't billed?
11 A. Well in my case, when we got the bill,
12 we paid it. I don't know what other residents have
13 been able to work out with him. I do know some of
14 them did complain that the billing was confusing to
15 them. It was not accurate according to their --
16 their records.
17 Q. Okay. It sounds like you've spoken
18 with some of your neighbors that live in the
19 subdivision. Is that correct?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Do you think that they're aware that
22 if they have questions or feel that their needs
23 aren't being addressed, that they can call the
24 customer assistance division at the Public Utilities
25 Commission for help in getting issues resolved?
305
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. I'm aware of that. I don't know how
2 many are not aware of it. I know that when this all
3 started, I think pretty much everybody was calling
4 DEQ, and I think Mr. Smith has received several
5 calls also from residents.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. No further
7 questions.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
9 Mr. Cobott.
10
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MR. COBOTT:
14 Q. Where did the water come from to fill
15 the 2,100-gallon reservoir?
16 A. It came from your system.
17 Q. Came from my system?
18 A. Yes, after -- but may I add
19 something? Okay. In the process of trying to put
20 the system in, I hired a plumber to come and do
21 that, and also the tank -- tanks people that came to
22 install, and the system. They took a look at the
23 pipe that they had to deal with and they were not
24 going to touch it. And, unfortunately, I did not
25 bring the pipe with me.
306
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 What happened was the little valve --
2 and I have showed Mr. Smith, I've showed Mr. Fuss --
3 on that is so corroded and rusted that my plumber
4 said, If I touch that, it will crumble. So that's
5 the pipe out on the street that comes kind of up,
6 and that's what they would have had to connect to.
7 I called Larry Fairfax and asked Larry
8 if he would work on that and he said, yes, he would,
9 just let me know when they're ready to put it in.
10 When I called Larry to say, okay,
11 we're ready to put it in, he said, I'm sorry, I
12 cannot install that, I cannot touch your system by
13 orders of Mr. Cobott; that you had gotten -- I guess
14 Public Utilities by this time had notified you that
15 they were working on the system and you told Larry
16 Fairfax not to touch the system again, not to put
17 any time, no work, into it.
18 So, therefore, my plumber said, Then I
19 can't install.
20 At that point they were filling -- or,
21 the scooper was scooping dirt, did not touch the
22 pipe, but as the dirt was removed from the pipe
23 area, the pipe that was standing up totally
24 collapsed, breaking the pipe. Larry was not
25 available so we had to get one of our neighbors -- I
307
HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 believe it was Mr. Coles -- Cole -- to come and shut
2 the system off at the street, and then my plumber at
3 that point put a shut-off on the pipe, was able to
4 stop the water flow, and was able to install the
5 tank.
6 At that point when Larry came home and
7 found that we had broken the pipe, he demanded $150
8 to come out and turn the water system back on again
9 at the street level, and my contractor said, No
10 way. You didn't put any work into this. You don't
11 deserve any hourly rate.
12 And he said, If you don't give me $150
13 in two days, I will shut your system off.
14 My contractor at that time said,
15 There's no way we're paying you $150.
16 So Larry said, Okay, give me 40 and I
17 won't tell Mr. Cobott what happened.
18 My contractor wrote out a check and
19 has the check to Larry Fairfax for $40 for work on
20 the system.
21 And so that's how I got a tank and
22 that's how we have water in the tank.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And I have a broken pipe.
25 Q. Are you aware that those shutoffs that
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 you're talking about have been in the ground since
2 1960 -- '69, '70?
3 A. I am aware of that, and I was just
4 wondering why they haven't been updated and upgraded
5 to a better quality.
6 Q. If it isn't broke, you don't fix it.
7 A. It got broke.
8 Q. Did this happen after PUC, after
9 December, or did this happen before December 2001?
10 A. This happened this last summer. We
11 were in California. It happened September, just
12 before September 1st, because we went to California
13 for our daughter's wedding the week before September
14 1st.
15 Q. I've talked to a few neighbors around
16 your area there, not up on the top but a few
17 neighbors around there, and they have commented on
18 the quality of the water as being good. No one has
19 ever gotten sick and it's been good. Now, I'm
20 getting conflicting reports here and I don't know
21 which way to go, other than what we're doing.
22 A. Well I'm just being safe and not
23 drinking the water.
24 Q. Well, the water is being chlorinated.
25 A. Uh-huh, sometimes very chlorinated.
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Q. Well, that happened in the infancy of
2 the chlorinator.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. That was a couple years ago, two and a
5 a half years ago.
6 A. No, actually if you turn the water on
7 at five o'clock in the morning, it's extremely
8 chlorined. You can smell the chlorine.
9 Q. You have -- you made a statement that
10 you received one statement. You received two
11 statements -- or, you received -- your first
12 statement that you got if you paid -- if you elected
13 to pay more than what the statement said, then you
14 wouldn't have got the second statement. And I don't
15 have the records here in front of me. But the first
16 statement you got you were billed for I think it was
17 probably five months, and I think in your particular
18 case you had a couple of months already paid?
19 A. I think we were billed $60.
20 Q. No, not the last -- yeah, that was
21 probably for three months. I sent out another
22 statement on September -- I mean, June 3rd. Did you
23 get that statement?
24 A. For how much? $20, yes, sir, I did.
25 I'm sorry, I did.
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Q. Okay. I have no further questions.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you.
3 Are there questions from members of
4 the Commission? Commissioner Hansen.
5
6 EXAMINATION
7
8 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
9 Q. I was just curious, you mentioned you
10 purchased all your drinking water. Could you tell
11 me how much a month you spend for drinking water?
12 A. Well, what I've been doing, I've been
13 going to Costco and buying the bottled water. I
14 just went down today and bought a case of it. I
15 would say that we are spending about $20 a month on
16 bottled water. And we had some Culligan, the big
17 ones, and we refill those at Safeway. So, say, 15,
18 $20 a month we spend on drinking water.
19 Q. What would you consider a fair rate if
20 you had good quality water that you could drink and
21 what would you think would be a fair rate to pay?
22 A. My husband and I have discussed this
23 and we feel that between 30 and $35 would be
24 equitable for everyone, and I think that would
25 probably be feasible for the people that live in the
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 lower areas.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there
4 further questions from members of the Commission?
5 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Nothing.
6 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: If not,
7 thank you for your testimony.
8 (The witness left the stand.)
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Is there
10 anyone else that would like to testify this evening
11 before we close the public hearing?
12 MS. DAHLGREN: May I get back up?
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I don't want
14 to start a series of going around. If you have
15 additional comments, perhaps the best way to
16 approach that would be to put those in written form
17 and submit them.
18 MS. DAHLGREN: Okay.
19 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Is there
20 anyone else who hasn't testified who would like to
21 testify now? Sir, please come forward.
22
23
24
25
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING GUGLIELMETTI (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 JON LEWIS,
2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly
3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MS. NORDSTROM:
8 Q. Good evening. Please state your name
9 and spell your last.
10 A. My name is Jon Lewis, L-E-W-I-S.
11 Q. And what is your mailing address?
12 A. 1818 Talachi Road, Sagle, Idaho,
13 83860.
14 Q. And are you a customer of the
15 Ponderosa Water Company?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Thank you. Please proceed with your
18 statement.
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I own two lots
20 there, and I don't live there but I have hydrants
21 installed on those lots, and so I'm an atypical case
22 from what you've heard here previously because I
23 don't go out -- I don't, like, have any dwellings
24 there, I don't have any camper or anything like
25 that. I would like to build out there, but given
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LEWIS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 the variability of the water availability, I mean, I
2 can hardly envision investing in building on my
3 lots, I mean. And I feel like I'm being screwed
4 because I've been paying water bills for years on
5 these lots and what am I going to do, you know? I
6 can't sell them. I can't really logically build on
7 them because it would be a poor investment. I don't
8 know what to do.
9 You know, and I'm being told by
10 Mr. Cobott that I should pay $60 a month; other
11 people are saying I should pay $56 a month.
12 Personally, I think if I were paying ten or $12 a
13 month for using no water, even though I can go turn
14 it on, would be reasonable; ten or 12 bucks, maybe
15 15.
16 I just want to have -- I just want
17 some kind of assurance that I'll have water when I
18 build a house there. I've put in a septic system on
19 one of the lots and I would very much like to build
20 a house, but under the circumstances, it's
21 unreasonable. I mean, I can't do it.
22 And I feel like Mr. Cobott has taken
23 in all this money over the years and he's saying, Do
24 you realize, well, these valves have been in there
25 for 20 or 30 years?
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LEWIS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 Well, that's his business. He's in
2 the business of selling water. He should be
3 upgrading and maintaining the system. It's not
4 proper for him to go on connecting -- collecting
5 rates and not maintaining the system. I mean, it's
6 just unconscionable on his part.
7 I -- I -- I'm really upset with this.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
9 Mr. Lewis.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's see if
12 there's some questions first. Start first with
13 Ms. Nordstrom.
14 MS. NORDSTROM: Thank you for your
15 testimony, but I don't have any questions.
16 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Cobott.
17
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19
20 BY MR. COBOTT:
21 Q. First of all, I never told you to pay
22 $60. You don't have anything -- I know for a fact
23 that you don't have anything I sent for you to pay
24 $60 a month. Is that correct? Do you have
25 paperwork showing that I told you --
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LEWIS (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. Not on my person.
2 Q. Are you aware that I've already talked
3 to PUC about putting in a third well?
4 A. I'm not a mind reader.
5 Q. Are you aware of anything to do with
6 the water system whatsoever or myself?
7 A. You don't communicate with me.
8 Q. Have you asked me to communicate with
9 you?
10 A. I have called you and you don't reply.
11 Q. And when was this?
12 A. I don't have records.
13 MR. COBOTT: That's all the questions
14 I have.
15 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
16 Mr. Cobott.
17 Are there questions from members of
18 the Commission? Commissioner Smith.
19
20 EXAMINATION
21
22 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
23 Q. Yes, Mr. Lewis, are your hydrants what
24 they call the frost free or are they ones that need
25 to be turned off before winter?
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LEWIS (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID Public
1 A. These are frost-free hydrants.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Further
4 questions? If not, Mr. Lewis, thank you for your
5 testimony this evening.
6 (The witness left the stand.)
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Is there
8 anyone else that would like to testify before we
9 close the proceedings this evening?
10 If not, then I wish to thank all of
11 you for your comments this evening. They are all
12 part of the official record. And, again, if you do
13 have some additional comments that you would like to
14 make, please feel free to submit those in writing.
15 You can either leave those with Mr. Ron Law this
16 evening, or the deadline for submission of comments,
17 are we looking at ten days?
18 MS. NORDSTROM: It's actually
19 tomorrow.
20 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I think we
21 need to extend that by a day or so.
22 MS. NORDSTROM: Sure.
23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's go a
24 full week. So a full week from this date, we'll
25 still be accepting those by either mail or through
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 e-mail or here, and you can again leave those with
2 Mr. Ron Law this evening and we'll get those back to
3 the record.
4 At this point we have established the
5 record, completing both the technical and the public
6 hearing. The Commission will review the full record
7 and any additional comments that come forward, and
8 then we will be issuing an Order upon review of
9 that. And so, again, we appreciate your
10 participation from all parties today from the
11 technical hearing and from customers this evening
12 for the public hearing, and we are adjourned.
13 (The hearing concluded at
14 7:37 p.m.)
15
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18
19
20
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID
1 AUTHENTICATION
2
3
4 This is to certify that the foregoing
5 Volumes I and II are true and correct transcripts to
6 the best of my ability of the proceedings held in
7 the matter of the investigation into whether
8 Ponderosa Terrace Estates Water System, Inc., is a
9 public utility subject to regulation by the Idaho
10 Public Utilities Commission, Case No. GNR-W-01-1,
11 commencing on Thursday, June 20, 2002, at the
12 Edgewater Resort, 56 Bridge Street, Sandpoint,
13 Idaho, and the originals thereof for the file of the
14 Commission.
15 Accuracy of all prefiled testimony as
16 originally submitted to this Reporter and
17 incorporated herein at the direction of the
18 Commission is the sole responsibility of the
19 submitting parties.
20
21
22 __________________________________
WENDY J. MURRAY, Notary Public
23 in and for the State of Idaho,
residing at Meridian, Idaho.
24 My Commission expires 2-5-2008.
Idaho CSR No. 475
25
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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING AUTHENTICATION
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID