PUCRR67.docx

1 SANDPOINT, IDAHO, MONDAY, JUNE 7, 1999, 7:00 P.M.
2
3
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Good evening,
5 ladies and gentlemen. This hearing will now be in
6 order. This is the time and place set by the Idaho
7 Public Utilities Commission for a public hearing in the
8 matter of the petition from Union Pacific Railroad
9 Company to close a grade crossing in Ponderay located at
10 milepost 76.12.
11 My name is Paul Kjellander and I'm a member
12 of the Commission. I'll be Chairing tonight's hearing.
13 At my right is Commissioner Dennis Hansen, our Commission
14 president, and to my left is Commissioner Marsha Smith.
15 The three of us make up the entire Commission.
16 The purpose of tonight's hearing is to take
17 evidence in the form of testimony regarding whether the
18 old crossing is reasonably necessary to gain access to
19 the commercial triangle. The issue at hand tonight is
20 access, so I'd like to encourage you to confine your
21 comments specifically to issues related to access. The
22 sign-up sheet is still available, I believe, in the back
23 of the room for you to have your name added for the
24 purpose of testifying in tonight's hearing.
25 Now, before we get started this evening,
1
CSB REPORTING COLLOQUY
Wilder, Idaho 83676
1 I'd like to take the appearances of the parties that are
2 involved in the case and we'll start with Union Pacific
3 and I believe the attorney is Dennis Farley.
4 MR. FARLEY: That's correct, Dennis Farley
5 representing Union Pacific Railroad. Also here is
6 Charlie Clark with me and John Trumbull.
7 MR. TRUMBULL: Over here.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We'd also like to
9 recognize now the Staff of the Idaho Public Utilities
10 Commission and the Staff attorney Don Howell.
11 MR. HOWELL: Mr. Chairman, Don Howell,
12 Deputy Attorney General, on behalf of the Commission
13 Staff and with me tonight is the Commission's executive
14 administrator or director or whatever Ron's new title is
15 which is Mr. Ron Law.
16 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: And I believe we
17 have a representative from the City. Is Randall Adams
18 with you?
19 MR. HAMAN: I'm in place of Randy Adams.
20 My name is Mike Haman with Quane, Smith representing the
21 City of Ponderay and this is Mayor Hunt.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
23 Mayor. Do any of the witnesses for or one thing I would
24 like to ask of the parties, do any of you have witnesses
25 that you want to present tonight and, if so, would you
2
CSB REPORTING COLLOQUY
Wilder, Idaho 83676
1 care to identify them at this point?
2 MR. HOWELL: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the
3 Commission Staff, we did not anticipate calling any
4 witnesses because we have filed comments in this case.
5 MR. FARLEY: Nor did we, but we'll wait and
6 see how the testimony comes in. We may have to clarify
7 some things.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: And how about the
9 City?
10 MR. HUNT: I would have some later on, if
11 the Chairman pleases.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: That's fine,
13 thank you. Now, the Commission has also received some
14 written comments from the following entities: Bill
15 Delack with Papa John's Pizza --
16 AUDIENCE: Papa Murphy's.
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I'm sorry, Papa
18 Murphy's. I guess I was going with one of the Boise
19 pizza eateries that I frequent. I'll start to frequent
20 yours more regularly now, Papa Murphy's. I'll give you
21 my address before I'm out of here -- the Idaho
22 Transportation Department, Co-op Gas and Supply, Bonner
23 County Advisory Transportation Team and the Bonner County
24 Board of Commissioners. Do any of these entities desire
25 to be considered parties for the purpose of
3
CSB REPORTING COLLOQUY
Wilder, Idaho 83676
1 cross-examination of public witnesses? Okay.
2 I'd like to remind the members of the
3 public that a brief overview of the parties' positions
4 are available in the back of the room and for the record,
5 we make a full transcript of these proceedings, which
6 means anything you say tonight will be taken down by our
7 court reporter Connie Bucy and they will be available for
8 review. The Commission will consider all of your
9 comments when we begin to deliberate this case and we'll
10 likely begin deliberations sometime next week and we will
11 try to render a decision as quickly as possible.
12 For purposes of this proceeding, all
13 persons who filed written comments or testify tonight
14 will receive copies of the Commission's decision in this
15 matter. Now, as we proceed tonight, I'll call your name
16 from the sign-up sheet and ask you to please come
17 forward. I'll ask you to come before Commissioner Hansen
18 who will ask you to raise your hand and he will swear you
19 in.
20 After you have been sworn in, you can take
21 a seat which is right over here, there's a wireless
22 microphone and we'll have some assistance to help you
23 with that so that everyone else in the room can hear.
24 Once you're seated, then Staff attorney from the Public
25 Utilities Commission Don Howell will ask you some
4
CSB REPORTING COLLOQUY
Wilder, Idaho 83676
1 questions for the record. Then you'll be allowed to
2 offer your statement.
3 The parties that were introduced earlier
4 this evening, along with the Commissioners, will then
5 have the opportunity to ask you some questions based on
6 your comments.
7 With that, we're ready to call our first
8 witness. I'll apologize in advance if I mispronounce
9 your name. Ray Delay. Ray, if you could come forward
10 please.
11
12 RAYMOND J. DELAY,
13 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
14 sworn, testified as follows:
15
16 EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. HOWELL:
19 Q Good evening, Mr. Delay. I need you to
20 state your full name and spell your last name for the
21 record, please.
22 A Raymond Junior Delay. Last name is
23 D-e-l-a-y.
24 Q And by whom are you employed and in what
25 capacity?
5
CSB REPORTING DELAY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 A Co-op Gas and Supply and I'm the general
2 manager.
3 Q And could we have a mailing address,
4 please?
5 A 125 Tibbetts Lane, Sandpoint.
6 Q And do you have a statement you'd like to
7 present to the Commission tonight?
8 A Well, none other than what we already kind
9 of wrote to the Commission. Basically, what we would
10 like to go record is that we do acknowledge that there
11 was some deals done with the Union Pacific back in 1987;
12 however, as things go, everything changes and I think the
13 changes in the City of Ponderay have been good and so I
14 think the growth of the city has substantially changed
15 and grown to increase the use of the crossing since
16 1987.
17 It is my understanding that the Commission
18 has to consider two issues, one of which, I guess, is
19 safety and that's kind of a moot point tonight. If the
20 safety is an issue, that would be easy to solve by having
21 signal lights and enhance the crossing floor because
22 there are plenty of room to warehouse cars on both sides
23 of the highway, on Highway 200 and Fontaine Drive.
24 The second consideration I know that the
25 Commission wants to hear tonight is the reasonable
6
CSB REPORTING DELAY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 necessity of the public convenience to gain vehicular
2 access to the commercial triangle. To that, I want to
3 make a few points. Right now the crossing is so rough
4 and full of potholes that one trying to cross the
5 crossing would almost bottom out his car. I'm sure that
6 the car count would be substantially more if the crossing
7 was or would be improved.
8 From time to time the crossing actually is
9 so bad that we at the Co-op have even taken gravel and
10 filled in the holes just so that our customers can gain
11 access from the Highway 200. We also understand that the
12 traffic pattern of the old crossing is part of the
13 intersecting access to the triangle area. For example,
14 if a customer comes into the Co-op from southbound on
15 Highway 95, and if you'll notice over here on your
16 illustration, coming southbound and crossing into
17 Tibbetts Lane, you gain access to our fueling station.
18 It's easiest for that customer, then, to
19 exit out of Tibbetts on to Fontaine Drive and across the
20 crossing and back on to Highway 200 and then coming back
21 to Highway 95 at the intersection which is lighted down
22 here at the bottom.
23 Now, the traffic that we receive there at
24 the Co-op ranges all the way from automobiles all the way
25 up to heavy trucks. We have school buses, logging
7
CSB REPORTING DELAY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 trucks, sheriff's vehicles, delivery tricks, fuel trucks
2 and a whole bunch of that kind of traffic, all of which
3 uses the crossing as a necessary crossing.
4 One of the things that we're concerned
5 about in the future with the Sandpoint highway bypass is
6 what impacts the improvements will make to the old
7 crossing on Fontaine Drive. We know that Highway 95 will
8 be improved and modified with a big cloverleaf
9 intersection for Highway 95 and 200 exchange. It only
10 seems, then, that Fontaine Drive becomes a frontage road
11 in that traffic pattern and I think the Idaho
12 Transportation Department needs to consider that in their
13 plan of making this part of the traffic and streets
14 available, because if one misses the turn on that
15 cloverleaf, that traffic will be displaced for many miles
16 before it actually can correct itself.
17 Now, one other issue that I have is the
18 commercial activity in the triangle has grown
19 substantially since 1987. The Co-op actually owns the
20 only building that was in existence in 1987 and now along
21 Fontaine Drive there are several other businesses. I'm
22 sure that traffic count has increased many times since
23 1987 and as Ponderay grows, so does the use of that
24 area.
25 Another issue that we are concerned with is
8
CSB REPORTING DELAY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 the emergency response vehicles. The Union Pacific seems
2 to have many ways of blocking all the crossings along
3 that Ponderay Road and route and sometimes it's the old
4 crossing that's the only one that's open and access for
5 fire, health and chemical and any other types of
6 emergency where time is important, that becomes an issue
7 that I think we are very concerned about, so it's been
8 kind of interesting.
9 We've tried to run a little petition there
10 at the Co-op over the last week or so and we've got
11 several hundred of our customers signing a little
12 petition to not close the crossing and I have several
13 pages of them here and if the Commission would like, I
14 can share those, but in the opinion of the Co-op, the old
15 crossing is necessary for the health and welfare of the
16 company and its neighbors and the City of Ponderay and so
17 we'd like to have the Commission consider not closing the
18 crossing and make it safer and really consider that it's
19 a reasonable necessity for public transportation in that
20 area.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Delay, thank
22 you. If you would like to leave the list of names you
23 have on the petition with Mr. Scott here, we'll make sure
24 that gets back to Boise with us and becomes part of the
25 record.
9
CSB REPORTING DELAY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 We're now ready for cross-examination. If
2 you could please remain seated, we'll start with Union
3 Pacific and Mr. Farley.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. FARLEY:
8 Q Mr. Delay, can you hear me?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Your business, the Co-op, it is located on
11 Tibbetts Drive?
12 A That is one of the streets, yes.
13 Q How many different ways can your business
14 invitees get to your station there?
15 A From Highway 95 they go east on Tibbetts.
16 When the Highway 95 is improved, we will, we are told,
17 and this is still in the drawing board, that we will have
18 a left turn southbound, a right turn northbound and those
19 will be in directions. There's only one exit and that
20 will be right northbound on 95. We also have access from
21 Fontaine Drive which comes from, I guess we can call it,
22 the McDonald intersection, and that would be a north and
23 south entry and then also from the old crossing which
24 would be a north and south entry and exit.
25 Q Do you get any business from across the new
10
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 crossing at Bonner Mall, what I'll refer to as the new
2 crossing?
3 A I would say as a percent that's quite a
4 distance for that crossing to give us very many
5 customers.
6 Q Have you done a study or found out how
7 people access your station at all?
8 A About, I would say about 25 percent come
9 from the old crossing. I would say about 40 percent
10 comes from Tibbetts and the balance comes south maybe
11 from the McDonald crossing.
12 Q If the old crossing is closed, how will
13 they access your business?
14 A Basically, I would say mostly from
15 Highway 95 and a few from the McDonald's.
16 Q What could the state or the city or the
17 county do to make access into your facility more
18 convenient if the old crossing is closed?
19 A I think the only thing that they really
20 could do is continue to have an entrance and an exit on
21 Highway 95 both north and southbound.
22 Q With some sort of an intersection, a light
23 there?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you do any advertising, any signs along
11
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 State Highway 200?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you ever calculated how far it is from
4 approximately where the old crossing is if you go down
5 State Highway 200 and where it connects with U.S. 95 and
6 back up to your station, do you know how far that is?
7 A I would say that's about 300 yards or maybe
8 less. I'm not sure.
9 Q Where do the emergency vehicles come from?
10 A City of Ponderay which is at the City Hall.
11 Q If the new crossing and the old crossing
12 were both blocked, how would they get to your facility?
13 A They would have to go all the way to the
14 intersection of 200 and 95 and come north.
15 Q Do you know how much longer that would take
16 them?
17 A Oh, two to three minutes.
18 Q What about if they went out the other way
19 to the Kootenai Cutoff and went over from Highway 200
20 over to U.S. 95, could they go that way?
21 A Yes, they could go that way. It would
22 probably be two to three minutes longer.
23 Q In your statement, you indicate that there
24 are fuel trucks using the old crossing.
25 A Yes.
12
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 Q Are those your fuel trucks?
2 A No, independent haulers.
3 Q They bring fuel into your facility?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you've seen logging trucks at the old
6 crossing?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q School buses?
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q Large recreational vehicles use that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How many different ways of access do you
13 think it's reasonable for a business to have from a major
14 road?
15 A Well, since there's two major roads, one
16 coming from Highway 200, it's important that we have
17 access that way. That is, that old crossing is our
18 access to 200. The other access that we do have is from
19 95, so that is up Tibbetts Road and that's two enters and
20 two exits that allows us to be in a good position and,
21 hopefully, when the Sandpoint bypass comes about we will
22 continue to be in a good position.
23 Q Are you aware of any businesses that are
24 similar to yours that only have one access off of
25 U.S. 95?
13
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 A Well, I don't think any of the other
2 businesses other than our neighboring feed store would
3 have access to both Highway 200 and 95 at the same time
4 as we do.
5 Q But there are businesses that only have one
6 access --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- off of 95? There are some businesses
9 that only have access off State Highway 200; is that
10 correct?
11 A That is probably correct.
12 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's move to
14 Public Utilities Commission Staff attorney Don Howell.
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. HOWELL:
19 Q Mr. Delay, you mentioned when the fire
20 department has to respond from City Hall, is that to the
21 north of the mall area?
22 A Yes, it's a mile or so north.
23 Q So one of the ways that they could gain
24 access to you is using what's labeled, I guess, as access
25 point B on that revised Exhibit 203 which would be the
14
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 old crossing?
2 A Yes.
3 Q All right, and another one would be, then,
4 Tibbetts Road which would be access C which is on
5 U.S. 95?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And then they could also come in at the
8 McDonald's which would be access D and Bonner Mall Way?
9 A Yes, and then they would come south.
10 Q Is there also another access point that is
11 off the Kootenai Cutoff or Triangle Drive that comes in,
12 roughly, comes into the mall area from this route here?
13 It's not really shown real well on that map.
14 A Actually, it's further north than that one.
15 Q Okay. This would be Triangle Drive,
16 though; right?
17 A Help me out, Mr. Mayor, is that Triangle
18 Drive?
19 Q If you don't know, don't guess.
20 A I don't know.
21 Q One of the things that I guess has been
22 examined is to take the alley at access point A that runs
23 all the way from State Highway 200 over to Fontaine and
24 improve that to a public street. Would that offer yet
25 another alternative if that improvement were
15
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 accomplished?
2 A One of the concerns that we have had with
3 the ITD is that if a truck going north misses Tibbetts
4 that they would have a tough time turning back around and
5 coming back down Fontaine.
6 Q Would their turn be easier if the alley
7 were actually improved all the way over to U.S. 95 and
8 they could make the turn there instead of up at Bonner
9 Mall Way? It's right where the circle is.
10 A The hearings that I've heard is if they put
11 a light in here, then it would be difficult for a truck
12 to do a U-turn and come back down. From the mall access
13 road up here, which is Bonner Mall Way, I think there
14 was -- it would even be more difficult because that's a
15 sharper turn to come back.
16 MR. HOWELL: I have no further questions.
17 Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's move now to
19 the City of Ponderay. Mr. Haman.
20 MR. HAMAN: I don't believe we have any
21 questions.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: From the
23 Commissioners?
24
25
16
CSB REPORTING DELAY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 EXAMINATION
2
3 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
4 Q Mr. Delay, I'd just like to ask you a
5 couple of questions. How long has your business been at
6 this location?
7 A Three years now.
8 Q Three years?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Were you aware when you located there that
11 there was a possibility that this crossing could be
12 closed? Were you aware of the deal that had been made in
13 1987?
14 A I am not aware of that; however, I was not
15 employed at the Co-op at that time, so I guess I can't
16 answer that question.
17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: All right, thank
18 you. That's all I have.
19 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Further questions
20 from the Commission? If not, Mr. Delay, thank you very
21 much.
22 (The witness left the stand.)
23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I'd like to call
24 our next witness. I believe it's Lianne Samalik. Did I
25 even come close?
17
CSB REPORTING DELAY (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 MS. SAMALIK: Very good. You even got it
2 right.
3
4 LIANNE M. SAMALIK,
5 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
6 sworn, testified as follows:
7
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
9
10 EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. HOWELL:
13 Q Could you state your full name and spell
14 your last for the record, please?
15 A It's Lianne Marie Samalik. It's
16 S-a-m-a-l-i-k.
17 Q And could you give us who you're employed
18 by and in what capacity?
19 A I work for IPS Tack and Feed and I'm the
20 manager.
21 Q And could you give us your business
22 address?
23 A 1201 Fontaine Drive in Sandpoint.
24 Q And please go ahead and give us your
25 statement.
18
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 A Well, basically, Ray said pretty much what
2 I had wanted to say, the access. We did a survey with
3 our customers as well. I have about 150, close to 200,
4 signatures got in the last week or so of people
5 requesting that the road stay open and just a general
6 consensus of our customers, if they don't come in that
7 way, they go out that way.
8 With Ponderay and Sandpoint being so close
9 together, a lot of the people that live around, they make
10 trips back and forth and there's a lot of going north and
11 south from that area, so it's necessary. That's kind of
12 why we're there is it's convenient for them coming from
13 Sandpoint and convenient for people coming from the
14 north, so having access from 200 as well as 95 makes that
15 area work, it makes it flow.
16 When the Bonner Mall Way is closed by
17 trains and that's the only access, if they talk about
18 making that road in through behind, I guess, Sandpoint
19 Furniture and such like that, I would think if the train
20 crosses Bonner Mall and closes it, it will close that
21 road as well, so you're limiting our access again.
22 There's times when the old crossing is
23 closed and I'm right there by the old crossing and people
24 turn around in our driveway and there's a lot of traffic
25 that uses the old crossing. Like I say, an integral part
19
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 of that triangle is to be able to go in and out both
2 north and south.
3 Again, I have the petitions here with the
4 signatures from our customers. I don't really know what
5 else to say other than I just believe for emergency
6 access, basically what Ray said, just the way that the
7 triangle is and the way the businesses are there to be
8 able to get in from both highways, especially with the
9 train at times closing that Bonner Mall Way, with that
10 closed, then there is no other way to go besides go all
11 the way around and then sometimes the trains have closed
12 200 to where you can't go around to 95 and you're stuck
13 there as well. It's a highly-used area for the trains,
14 so as many accesses as we can have to keep something open
15 I believe is necessary and we'd like to keep the crossing
16 open.
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, we
18 appreciate your statement. We're ready for
19 cross-examination.
20 Union Pacific? Mr. Farley.
21 MR. FARLEY: Yes, I have a few questions.
22
23
24
25
20
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. FARLEY:
4 Q If there was some type of a light, an
5 intersection put on U.S. 95, would that help your
6 customers get in and out of that triangular area?
7 A A light put where?
8 Q Well, can you show me on that exhibit
9 where -- is it IPS Tack and Feed?
10 A Uh-huh.
11 Q -- can you show me where your business is
12 located?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Which way from Tibbetts is it?
15 A We're on Fontaine right by the old
16 crossing, so I can't even see where that is.
17 Q Okay, so you'd be clear down at the bottom
18 there?
19 A Where's the old crossing?
20 MR. HOWELL: Keep going down.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Then we're -- there's
22 Tibbetts, so that would be Co-op and then we'd be right
23 here [indicating].
24 MR. HOWELL: Can you show us, where are you
25 here? This is Fontaine, here's the old crossing.
21
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 THE WITNESS: Okay, so --
2 MR. HOWELL: This is the old crossing,
3 here's the road.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay, we're right here
5 (indicating).
6 Q BY MR. FARLEY: What does your business
7 sell?
8 A We're a tack and feed store.
9 Q And your customers are primarily from
10 around this area?
11 A We get people from Montana, north of town,
12 Sandpoint, south of town. We have customers from all
13 over.
14 Q If the old crossing were closed, would they
15 still be able to get to your store?
16 A It depends on what they're going to do with
17 Highway 95 and it depends on if there are trains at the
18 Bonner Mall Way.
19 Q If Bonner Mall Way is blocked by a train
20 and the old crossing is closed, will they be able to get
21 to your store?
22 A If Tibbetts is still accessible both north
23 and south, then yes.
24 Q Which way do you go to work?
25 A I come from north and I come in over the
22
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 old crossing.
2 Q Is there a reason you don't use the new
3 Bonner Mall crossing?
4 A Because the traffic at McDonald's, you
5 know, the turn at the McDonald's there is, I believe,
6 unsafe. It's hard to make a left turn there when people
7 are coming in off the highway.
8 Q Have you ever seen people use that alley
9 that goes behind those businesses?
10 A It says it's one way, so people don't go
11 through it.
12 Q You've never seen anyone use that?
13 A I haven't, no. It has a big sign that says
14 one way.
15 Q What kind of vehicles do you see driving
16 over that old crossing? Let's start with the vehicles
17 maybe that serve your store.
18 A We have delivery trucks, large semi-trucks
19 that come in delivering feed and then hay trucks because
20 we do have hay sales there as well and then our
21 customers, pickup trucks to cars to a little bit of
22 everything. For large semis and such like that, the old
23 crossing is the easiest and most accessible way to get to
24 Fontaine Drive for Co-op and for us, coming for fuel.
25 Q Do you ever use the road that's down by the
23
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 McDonald's if you come in from Bonner Mall Way to the
2 west?
3 A So go out at McDonald's and take a left and
4 get on to the highway?
5 Q Where Fontaine Drive runs into Bonner Mall
6 Way down by the McDonald's.
7 A I occasionally will go to Yoke's and come
8 back that way, but like I say, I don't believe that's a
9 good intersection.
10 Q Is that a fairly heavily traveled road?
11 A Yes.
12 Q On a daily basis?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you know who maintains that road?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Have you ever seen snowplows moving the
17 snow during the winter?
18 A I know in the winter the Bonner Mall Way is
19 not kept up very well.
20 Q So it's not cleared of snow?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know who posted the stop sign on the
23 corner?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you know if your business would be
24
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 willing to participate at all in upgrade of the old
2 crossing with lights and gates and other things like
3 that?
4 A We're a small business, we don't have much
5 money, but I mean, I'll go out and use a shovel and help
6 you dig or something.
7 Q We may take you up on that.
8 A Okay. To keep it open, I would do that.
9 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you. PUC
11 Staff attorney Don Howell.
12 MR. HOWELL: Just one question,
13 Mr. Chairman.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16
17 BY MR. HOWELL:
18 Q To clarify, the roadway that you talked
19 about going behind Sandpoint Furniture would be the
20 alley?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. HOWELL: Okay, thank you. No further
23 questions.
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's move now to
25 the City of Ponderay. Mr. Haman.
25
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 MR. HAMAN: I just want to follow up on a
2 question that I believe -- I don't think this is working.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: You have to hit
4 both buttons.
5 MR. HAMAN: I did.
6 MR. HUNT: Is it working now?
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Yes, you just
8 have to have the right voice, the Mayor's voice always
9 comes through.
10
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MR. HAMAN:
14 Q I believe Mr. Farley asked and I didn't
15 hear, maybe I didn't hear the response or maybe the
16 question wasn't clear enough for me, if the old crossing
17 were closed at this time, do you believe that your
18 business would be impacted by its closure?
19 A Definitely.
20 Q How?
21 A Just from the times when the train has
22 blocked that crossing, the cars, you know, customers
23 explain that it's very inconvenient to have to go back
24 around and then back up north and they have to wait at a
25 light at 95 and 200 and then come back up and through and
26
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 if they're going back south again, then they have to go
2 back out. You know, it does not, like I say, the area is
3 a triangle and we serve both north and south and it's, I
4 believe, really necessary for that area to have a traffic
5 flow that people don't have to backtrack and go back
6 around places. If they're going north, they can just
7 keep going that way and going south, the same thing.
8 Q So it's your belief that you would lose
9 business?
10 A Definitely.
11 MR. HAMAN: I have no further questions.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
13 the Commissioners.
14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I do.
15
16 EXAMINATION
17
18 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
19 Q Same question I asked before, how long has
20 your business been located in this area?
21 A Approximately four years.
22 Q Are you aware that your business when you
23 located there that there was an agreement that had been
24 made that this crossing may be closed in the future?
25 A I can't speak for the -- I'm the manager.
27
CSB REPORTING SAMALIK (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 The owner of the business is not here. I don't know if
2 he was aware, but approximately a year ago we did a lot
3 of renovation and we made bigger buildings and improved
4 our business and at that time I was not aware that this
5 was a possibility.
6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay, thank you.
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Further questions
8 from the Commission?
9 Ms. Samalik, thank you very much for your
10 testimony.
11 (The witness left the stand.)
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I'd like to call
13 now Scott Dempsey. Mr. Dempsey, if you could come on up
14 here and be sworn by Commissioner Hansen.
15
16 SCOTT H. DEMPSEY,
17 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
18 sworn, testified as follows:
19
20 EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. HOWELL:
23 Q Mr. Dempsey, could you state your full name
24 and spell your last for the record?
25 A I'm Scott H. Dempsey, D-e-m-p-s-e-y.
28
CSB REPORTING DEMPSEY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 Q And, sir, by whom are you employed and in
2 what capacity?
3 A I'm a property owner and property
4 management throughout the Ponderay area and business
5 owner.
6 Q Do you have property in the commercial
7 triangle?
8 A Just outside, right across from the
9 Eastgate access, we would say, the Bonner Mall access.
10 On Highway 200 we own a couple of acres.
11 Q Could you give us your business address?
12 A The physical address, we just moved, is on
13 Highway 200. The property address there is 3175 Highway
14 200 and the new business is located about a half a mile
15 farther down the road.
16 Q Great, and your statement, sir?
17 A I lived at that address right across from,
18 they call it, the new crossing. I saw numerous accidents
19 and I actually avoid that entrance and go down to
20 Fontaine because it's much more accessible for us. I
21 lived there five years and I kind of knew my routes and
22 that was the best way to get to somewhere. I would say
23 on an average I use it four to five times a day still. I
24 would estimate, I'd say 150 to 200 cars a day use it
25 and/or trucks.
29
CSB REPORTING DEMPSEY
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, if that's
2 your statement, then we'll be ready now for
3 cross-examination and we'll start then with Union
4 Pacific. Mr. Farley.
5
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7
8 BY MR. FARLEY:
9 Q Mr. Dempsey, when you lived across from the
10 new crossing, when was this?
11 A We moved from that location about a year
12 ago.
13 Q And you saw you said several accidents?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What type of accidents are we talking
16 about? Are we talking about train/vehicle accidents?
17 A No, car and traffic accidents. No train
18 accidents, no. I've seen, you know, trucks parked across
19 the tracks because of the way they're stopped at the stop
20 sign and can't get out and I've seen arms coming down on
21 them and they just pulled out because they'd rather get
22 hit by a car than a train, I guess. It is kind of
23 dangerous, but it's nice, it's got the arms and
24 everything.
25 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
30
CSB REPORTING DEMPSEY (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell from
2 the PUC.
3 MR. HOWELL: No questions.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: And from the City
5 of Ponderay, Mr. Haman.
6 MR. HAMAN: No questions.
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Dempsey,
8 thank you very much for your testimony.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 (The witness left the stand.)
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I believe our
12 next name is Jessie, is it, DeMers? Thank you, if you
13 could come up and Commissioner Hansen will swear you in.
14
15 JESSIE E. DeMERS,
16 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
17 sworn, testified as follows:
18
19 EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MR. HOWELL:
22 Q Could you state your full name and spell
23 your last for the record?
24 A Jesse E. DeMers, D-e-M-e-r-s.
25 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
31
CSB REPORTING DeMERS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 capacity?
2 A I am self-employed. My business is Style
3 and Stay Pet Motel.
4 Q And is it located in the commercial
5 triangle somewhere?
6 A No, I am located behind Mr. Dempsey's
7 property in the Emerald Industrial Park which is on the
8 east side of 200.
9 Q And could you give us a business address?
10 A It's 180 Emerald Industrial Park Road,
11 Sandpoint.
12 Q And do you have a statement you'd like to
13 give to the Commission?
14 A Yes, it will be very brief, but I access
15 Fontaine Drive via the old diamond crossing. I have an
16 animal facility business and we haul hay, we haul tandem
17 horse trailers and many, many of my clients go across the
18 old crossing because of the feed and tack supply
19 businesses that Co-op and IPS conduct. It's much easier
20 and much safer for us with very little impact on the
21 commercial roads to use that rail crossing.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, thank you.
23 We're ready for cross-examination. Mr. Farley.
24
25
32
CSB REPORTING DeMERS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. FARLEY:
4 Q If the old crossing is closed, will you
5 discontinue taking your business to feed and tack?
6 A I won't say at this point I would
7 discontinue it, but I would be very hesitant to use it
8 all season long because of the slippery roads that we
9 would have to deal with if we had to go down to the Y and
10 back up 95 with two 1200-pound horses and a trailer or
11 loads of hay, it would be really a very dangerous
12 undertaking for us.
13 Q Is that the direction you would access it
14 would be go down to where State Highway 200 and U.S. 95
15 intersect?
16 A Probably if we crossed at the new crossing
17 off Highway 200, heading west with the traffic, it would
18 just be impossible, plus we would impact the Bonner Mall
19 Road with the heavy loads that we would transport and it
20 wouldn't be a feasible way to go.
21 Q What about going around the Kootenai
22 Cutoff?
23 A Well, there again, we're dealing with
24 getting on to the Kootenai Cutoff off of 200, there is no
25 light. It is a very dangerous left-hand turn and when
33
CSB REPORTING DeMERS (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 you're dealing with livestock that can move back and
2 forth and hay that can shift, I wouldn't even try to go
3 on the Kootenai Cutoff road in the wintertime.
4 Q Is there anything the state or the city or
5 the county could do to make that type of travel more
6 convenient for you to get to where you're going on the
7 commercial triangle?
8 A I think signal lights would help.
9 MR. FARLEY: Thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Let's go to
11 Mr. Howell.
12 MR. HOWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. HOWELL:
17 Q Are most of your turns going in to or on to
18 Fontaine Drive from State Highway 200?
19 A Uh-huh.
20 Q When you exit, do you ever go in the
21 opposite direction?
22 A No, we just turn right around and come back
23 out on 200 via the diamond crossing.
24 MR. HOWELL: No further questions.
25 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
34
CSB REPORTING DeMERS (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 MR. HAMAN: No questions.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you. We
3 appreciate your testimony. Oh, I'm sorry,
4 Commissioners. I always cut it short. Let's go to
5 Commissioner Smith.
6
7 EXAMINATION
8
9 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
10 Q Ms. DeMers, I was wondering if you would
11 mind showing me on the aerial photo on the wall where you
12 are and where the crossing is and how you use it and the
13 alternate routes you discussed with Mr. Farley, would you
14 mind doing that?
15 A If I can without my glasses even find
16 anything, so the old one is up here. Okay, my business
17 is located in this area here [indicating]. I'm just
18 northeast of the new crossing, like a hop, skip and a
19 jump. I would go down 200, I would access Fontaine Drive
20 right here and if I had, if this was blocked off, I would
21 have to go all the way down to the Y, the intersection
22 where the light is, and I know that semi-truck drivers
23 complain about the winter roads and the ice and the
24 slipping through the signs and the tailgating and all
25 this type of thing. I would have to make a sharp turn
35
CSB REPORTING DeMERS (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 here at the light and I'd have to come up 95. If
2 Tibbetts Road continues to be open, then I would make a
3 right-hand turn on Tibbetts Road back to Fontaine Drive
4 and back around.
5 Q Okay, and where was this left-hand turn
6 that you thought was too dangerous to attempt?
7 A That would be if I made a right-hand turn
8 out of the industrial park where my business is and I
9 went north on 200 to the Kootenai Cutoff, then you make a
10 sharp left-hand turn, but there's no signal, so you're
11 dealing with traffic coming from Montana and --
12 Q Is that two lanes?
13 A Pardon me?
14 Q Is that two lanes?
15 A Highway 200?
16 Q Two lanes of traffic.
17 A Uh-huh, and it's very, very dangerous.
18 Q And what about what we're calling the new
19 crossing, can you show me why that doesn't work? It
20 seems you're awfully close to it.
21 A Well, if I made a right-hand turn across
22 the new crossing, I'm going down Eastgate Drive, I'm
23 making a sharp right-hand turn to the stoplight or a stop
24 sign on Bonner Mall Road, I'm making a left-hand turn on
25 Bonner Mall Road and then a left-hand turn on Fontaine
36
CSB REPORTING DeMERS (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 and that commercial sector there is a grocery store, a
2 mall, the traffic is horrendous. All people need is a
3 two-horse trailer or a load of hay. I mean, I would be
4 impacting the road which right now is full of holes, is
5 not plowed, so I would just be adding to a mess.
6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you very much.
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there further
8 questions from the Commission? It's okay to leave.
9 Thank you. We'll let you get away.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.
11 (The witness left the stand.)
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. James Hunt.
13 MR. HUNT: I will be later.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, let's move,
15 then, to Heather Bindner and if you could come up and be
16 sworn in by Commissioner Hansen.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
CSB REPORTING DeMERS (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 HEATHER M. BINDNER,
2 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
3 sworn, testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. HOWELL:
8 Q Could you state your full name and spell
9 your last name for the record, please?
10 A Heather Bindner, B-i-n-d-n-e-r.
11 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
12 capacity?
13 A I am the owner of Bonner Cab Company in
14 Sandpoint and Ponderay.
15 Q And are your offices or facilities located
16 in this commercial triangle?
17 A No, they're not.
18 Q And could you give us a business address?
19 A P.O. Box 1404, Sandpoint, Idaho, 83864.
20 Q And do you have a statement?
21 A Yes. We quite often, as many as three and
22 four times a day, are called by the Union Pacific
23 Railroad to help out at all three of those crossings, the
24 mall, Kootenai Cutoff and the diamond. We help them
25 switch the train while they're waiting for another train,
38
CSB REPORTING BINDNER
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 break the crossings and sometimes we have to sit there
2 while they, you know, check an air brake or something
3 like that.
4 Many times, more times than not, we are
5 there at that crossing for half an hour to an hour.
6 We're there at all different times of the day and the
7 night. Never at any time in the last four years have I
8 seen a hay truck or a semi cross over that crossing or a
9 school bus. I will say that Fontaine is not in good
10 repair and neither is the mall. The alley that goes
11 behind the Sandpoint Furniture could be opened up and
12 widened so that traffic could go in both areas.
13 You know, we do avoid the crossing. We
14 pull up to it, you know, we keep our distance from it,
15 but we pull up to it and if they need to go back to the
16 mall crossing, we do turn around to avoid the crossing
17 and not have to go over it to go to the mall, to go to
18 Kootenai Cutoff. If we have to cross over, we try to
19 cross over at the mall and Kootenai Cutoff because that
20 crossing is in terrible repair and I mean, if you're in a
21 car, it could eat it. It could eat your axle if you
22 weren't paying attention going across, but also we've
23 noticed that the crossing is -- it does have stop signs,
24 but it isn't very clearly marked and quite often when the
25 train is coming northbound, people will try to run the
39
CSB REPORTING BINDNER
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 train, they'll see it, they'll see the headlight and
2 they'll try to make it over that set of tracks, but in
3 eight years of doing this, I can't remember and have
4 never seen an accident at that particular crossing.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you and
6 we're ready for cross-examination. Mr. Farley from Union
7 Pacific.
8
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10
11 BY MR. FARLEY:
12 Q Have you seen traffic using what I'll refer
13 to as the private alley?
14 A The private alley is the one behind
15 Sandpoint Furniture?
16 Q Yes.
17 A It is one way and, yes, there is traffic
18 that uses it.
19 Q Have you ever seen anyone going the wrong
20 way?
21 A No.
22 Q How often have you seen people drive that
23 alley?
24 A Well, we probably go out near the Bonner
25 Mall 30 times a day and the times that I've used the
40
CSB REPORTING BINDNER (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 alley, and I use it as often as I possibly can to avoid
2 the traffic going right directly in front of the mall, in
3 front of the Monarch and the McDonald's, I would say that
4 there's probably traffic on that road, except after,
5 like, 9:00 o'clock at night, it's not heavy traffic, but
6 there's almost always a car accompanying me down the
7 road.
8 Q If the old crossing were closed, would you
9 still be able to find your way around what we refer to as
10 the commercial triangle area?
11 A Oh, absolutely.
12 MR. FARLEY: Thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16
17 BY MR. HOWELL:
18 Q You mentioned the diamond crossing, I
19 believe, in your testimony?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Is that the old crossing that we're talking
22 about on Fontaine Drive where it intersects State Highway
23 200?
24 A Yes.
25 MR. HOWELL: Thank you. No further
41
CSB REPORTING BINDNER (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 questions.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
3 Mr. Haman from the City of Ponderay?
4 Is that a maybe?
5 MR. HAMAN: I'm thinking.
6 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9
10 BY MR. HAMAN:
11 Q Is it your understanding that the Idaho
12 Transportation Department may improve access to the
13 commercial triangle off of I-95?
14 A I'm not for or against its closure. I'm
15 just stating what we see in the time that we're there. I
16 don't think I understand your question.
17 Q I understand that you're not for or
18 against, I'm asking you if that's an understanding you
19 have, whether the ITD is going to or may improve access
20 to the commercial triangle with the new I-95?
21 A I don't know.
22 MR. HAMAN: Okay, I have no other
23 questions.
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
25 the Commission? Commissioner Smith.
42
CSB REPORTING BINDNER (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 EXAMINATION
2
3 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
4 Q I guess I'm trying to understand some of
5 the concerns, I think. Were you here when the witness
6 just before you Ms. DeMers testified?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And her concerns with the bad roads in the
9 winter and the left-hand turn and why the new crossing
10 doesn't work, I'm trying to square that with what I see
11 as your -- your concerns seem to be different. Do you
12 share any of her concerns or have any of those, see any
13 problems that exist like that?
14 A The problems that she talks about with the
15 trucking I can't testify to at all because I don't know,
16 I don't drive semis and all that. Being in basically
17 cars or vans, we don't have any trouble getting into any
18 of their businesses without ever using that crossing and
19 we don't use it. We stay away from it, our drivers are
20 instructed to stay away from the crossing, so, you know,
21 with the hay trucks and all of that, it may be a better
22 way, but I can't see that that right turn after you make
23 the track, after you cross over the track, if you come in
24 on Highway 200 and you cross over the railroad tracks,
25 you have a fairly sharp right turn there, so in winter, I
43
CSB REPORTING BINDNER (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 can't see that that right turn would be anywhere -- the
2 right turn at the mall crossing where you have to cross
3 over and make that right turn and then go into the mall
4 is a gentler curve to the right than the one that's
5 directly over the tracks at the old crossing.
6 I would think that if you can get a hay
7 truck or a semi over the crossing, I mean, around that
8 curve that you could get that over at the mall crossing,
9 also, but I can see where a semi coming in off of Highway
10 95 at the McDonald's entrance would never be able -- I
11 just couldn't see how they would be able to make that
12 turn on to Fontaine, not a semi.
13 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you very much.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Any further
15 questions from the Commissioners? If not, thank you for
16 your testimony.
17 (The witness left the stand.)
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I'd like to call
19 now Mike Andrews. Mike, if you could come up and be
20 sworn by Commissioner Hansen.
21
22
23
24
25
44
CSB REPORTING BINDNER (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 MICHAEL R. ANDREWS,
2 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
3 sworn, testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. HOWELL:
8 Q Could you state your name and spell your
9 last name for the record, please?
10 A Yes, Michael R. Andrews, A-n-d-r-e-w-s.
11 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
12 capacity?
13 A I'm self-employed and I have property
14 holdings along Fontaine Avenue, the tenants of which
15 include Papa Murphy's, Three Rivers Building Materials,
16 SL Start and Plumb-Co Supply.
17 Q And for the Commissioners' benefit, could
18 you either point out those properties on that map or the
19 photo?
20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: The Commissioners
21 can't see that.
22 Q BY MR. HOWELL: Why don't we use this map
23 up here.
24 A I can't hardly see this map, but it would
25 be this from right here north to right there, so this
45
CSB REPORTING ANDREWS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 triangular section right along there [indicating].
2 Q All right; so these properties right here
3 [indicating].
4 A My first observation is that --
5 Q I need your business address, sir.
6 A 7695 North Rude Street, Coeur d'Alene,
7 Idaho.
8 Q Thank you. Go ahead.
9 A My first observation is that there is a
10 conflict of purposes that occurs here in this area. We
11 have a growing retail corridor and also a train track
12 that runs right through that area. The train track, of
13 course, has been there a long time, but we are also
14 seeing continued growth and traffic in that area and I
15 think as the bypass gets put in, we'll see increased
16 traffic in that area as well.
17 In my situation, we've made a pretty
18 substantial investment in the commercial property there.
19 The actual design of the intended use of that property is
20 to be a retail center. It has been designed and approved
21 for a retail center and at this point one of the three
22 phases are constructed and being used.
23 With regards to the importance of access to
24 that property, one of our tenants, especially which is
25 Papa Murphy's, that was probably the key criteria that we
46
CSB REPORTING ANDREWS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 had to meet in order to attract them and place them on
2 that property was access. The access was favorable to
3 them and that's why we were able to bring them into that
4 area.
5 Three of the tenants that we currently have
6 use access along those roads for large trucks, commercial
7 vehicles and use all three of the ingresses and
8 egresses. The problem that we seem to be facing in this
9 area is that there is no really good single way in and
10 out. The access along Bonner Mall, that's a very tight
11 corner to turn down Fontaine. When you're coming in
12 Tibbetts, it's a decent road in most of the time. During
13 the winter, I have seen situations where Tibbetts Avenue
14 is so icy that it's difficult to get up, but it was way
15 too easy to get down. I've seen some accidents there at
16 the bottom of that.
17 My preferred route when I arrive is to come
18 in on Bonner Mall Way. When I'm coming north, I come in
19 on Bonner Mall because it's a right turn with no stops
20 and come into the businesses there. When I leave, I
21 always leave over the old crossing because I'm headed
22 south and it's always easiest to turn right and head back
23 down rather than try to come across traffic.
24 The newest business building that we put in
25 there, Plumb-Co Supply, is designed so that you can see
47
CSB REPORTING ANDREWS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 signs from both highways along that way. The access on
2 Bonner Mall Way is one that, like Scott Dempsey said
3 earlier, I try to avoid and I know others do as well
4 because the distance between Highway 200 and the railroad
5 is fairly short and it doesn't take many vehicles getting
6 stopped there before you either can't stop or you're
7 being pushed back out into Highway 200.
8 Also, the Bonner Mall Way is not well
9 maintained and is not adequate for commercial traffic
10 through there with all of the zigs and zags that it
11 contains. We feel pretty strongly that the access,
12 having the access on both ends is very important to all
13 of the businesses there. I do know that had this been an
14 issue when we were doing the Papa Murphy's building that
15 we probably would not have been able to place that tenant
16 there. I understand the conflict of purposes, but I do
17 believe that it is pretty important to keep all of those
18 roads and accesses open.
19 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you much.
20 We're ready now for cross-examination. Mr. Farley from
21 Union Pacific.
22
23
24
25
48
CSB REPORTING ANDREWS
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. FARLEY:
4 Q How many tenants did you say you have?
5 A I have four.
6 Q And is this the only area that you have
7 tenants is along Fontaine Drive?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q How long have you been in property
10 management?
11 A I have owned that piece of property since
12 '92.
13 Q How many different accesses does a business
14 need in order to get customers in and out?
15 A Well, you only need one access ultimately
16 to get in and out. What we're talking about is a
17 reasonable ease of access and the more access there is
18 the better it is for businesses, the more attractive a
19 piece of property becomes.
20 Q Would it improve the convenience to your
21 customers or your tenants' customers if there were, say,
22 a signal at the new Bonner Mall crossing, I mean out on
23 State Highway 200?
24 A At this point my concern is that the
25 addition of a signal there is actually going to decrease
49
CSB REPORTING ANDREWS (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 accessibility because of some potential changes in the
2 access to Fontaine. Fontaine and the highway are fairly
3 close together right there and there are some issues, I
4 guess, also of property ownership as well and we're not
5 quite sure what is going to happen to that, I think,
6 until it's actually done and that's another issue, but a
7 very important one to us, as well.
8 Q Well, if lights were put in at Tibbetts
9 Drive and U.S. 95, would that help things?
10 A If a signal were put there?
11 Q Yes.
12 A My only problem with -- I guess I would say
13 yes, that would be of some benefit. My main problem
14 there is Tibbetts needs to be engineered differently if
15 it's going to be the main ingress and egress because at
16 certain times of the year you just choose not to use that
17 way in, because even though it may be less heavily
18 traveled, it is not flat and the ingress on either
19 Highway 200 or Bonner Mall Way and the old railroad
20 crossing there are flat, even though they aren't as well
21 maintained and bumpy, it's still the easiest way and
22 safest way to get in during the winter.
23 Q You're talking because of snow and ice?
24 A Snow and ice, yes.
25 Q But isn't that true of many areas,
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1 particularly up here?
2 A Yes, it is. It just seems a little bit
3 senseless to do away with the better accesses in favor of
4 one that is more poorly graded.
5 Q Did you make any representations to your
6 tenants before they moved in that the old crossing would
7 remain open?
8 A No, sir, I did not, but up until just
9 recently here I had no knowledge that there was any
10 attempt to close it either.
11 Q If there were a traffic signal put in on
12 U.S. 95 and Bonner Mall Way, would that help?
13 A Is this the same question we answered
14 earlier? I guess --
15 Q Let me clarify. The previous question was
16 with regard to Tibbetts Drive.
17 A Okay.
18 Q What about down at Bonner Mall Way near the
19 McDonald's?
20 A Okay. I thought we touched on that, too
21 and my response was that I felt that that potentially
22 could actually worsen access because, depending on how
23 they lay it out when they put that stoplight in, it may
24 result in a closure or a partial, you know, closure of
25 that end of Fontaine Drive. I guess I would say I would
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1 definitely be in favor of straightening out the alley
2 that runs from Highway 200 and carrying that all the way
3 through to the other highway. That is the one thing
4 that's missing right now is an easy access across from
5 those two roads, but I know there are other issues with
6 property owners that may not be resolvable.
7 Q Are you talking about from the new Bonner
8 Mall crossing directly west to U.S. 95?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Where what we referred to as the private
11 alley is behind those businesses?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So if that were widened and was a public
14 road and you could go both directions, that would improve
15 access through there?
16 A It would definitely make commercial traffic
17 much easier to get across. It still would not deal with
18 the fact that on that new crossing when you are trying to
19 enter off of 200 that there is basically a short runway
20 there between the road and the actual crossing. The
21 older crossing is still the friendliest way to make that
22 turn.
23 Q If the old crossing were closed, people
24 would still be able to access the businesses that rent
25 your property, wouldn't they?
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1 A Again, yes. It's just reasonable ease of
2 access. I believe the closure of that would add at least
3 close to half a mile if you have to go all the way around
4 and back up, depending on what they do with the north/
5 south accesses on Tibbetts and Bonner Mall Way, so, yes,
6 it's still accessible. It just adds additional distance.
7 Q And you don't know what they're planning
8 for U.S. 95?
9 A No. These are both kind of going on
10 simultaneously right now and we're concerned we're going
11 to wind up with a cul-de-sac there and one that's only
12 partially passable during the winter.
13 MR. FARLEY: Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: PUC Staff
15 attorney Don Howell.
16
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MR. HOWELL:
20 Q Mr. Andrews, do you know who plows in the
21 wintertime Fontaine Drive?
22 A No, I don't.
23 MR. HOWELL: No further questions.
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HAMAN:
4 Q Mr. Andrews, do you anticipate that some
5 tenants may not renew their leases if the old crossing is
6 closed?
7 A It is a definite possibility.
8 Q Has anyone expressed that to you?
9 A They have not. Fortunately, some of our
10 leases right now are fairly long term, but, again, it's
11 one of those things that a lot of times you don't deal
12 with until it's actually an issue and at this point it's
13 still a little early in the game, but it is a concern of
14 mine and definitely as we plan on expanding that mall
15 area there, we have approval to put an additional, I
16 believe it is, 15,000 feet of building on that property
17 and it is, you know, a great concern about what it would
18 ultimately be, you know, marketable as. Right now it is
19 very attractive, but we're concerned about its future.
20 Q Do you anticipate, in other words, leasing
21 additional space in the future and that would be easier
22 if the old crossing is kept open?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 MR. HAMAN: Okay. I have no further
25 questions.
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1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
2 the Commissioners?
3
4 EXAMINATION
5
6 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
7 Q I believe I heard you say that you became
8 involved in this area in 1992, and at that time were you
9 aware that a deal had been made if the new crossing was
10 put in with lights and so forth that there could be a
11 possibility that this old crossing would be closed, were
12 you aware of that?
13 A No, sir, I was not. I knew that the road,
14 the crossing there, was poorly maintained, but Bonner
15 Mall Way was as well and it's just been a state of
16 affairs since I've been there, but I had no clue that
17 there was talk of closing either end of Fontaine.
18 Q Did you have any communication with any
19 city or county planning and zoning people or city council
20 or anyone like that?
21 A No, sir. That's not something that I
22 would, I guess, even typically have a doubt about.
23 Usually a public road is a public road and it's something
24 that has caught me quite unawares.
25 Q Since '92 if your businesses as well as
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1 others hadn't located there, would you see a problem
2 closing that crossing now?
3 A I'm sorry, could you restate that?
4 Q Let's go back. I mean, we've had a couple
5 of businesses that said they've been there the last three
6 years, you stated you've had four businesses go in since
7 '92, if these businesses had not been allowed to locate
8 in that area or been aware that that crossing could have
9 closed so they didn't locate, you mentioned Papa Murphy's
10 probably wouldn't have located there, if these businesses
11 hadn't located there, is it your opinion that it wouldn't
12 be a problem then closing this crossing?
13 A So you're saying if the businesses --
14 Q If the new businesses since '92, since
15 you're aware, had not located there, would there be a
16 problem in your mind closing this crossing --
17 A I guess --
18 Q -- or is it the new businesses that's
19 located there in the last few years that's causing the
20 community a problem closing this?
21 A I guess if none of us were there it
22 wouldn't be an issue.
23 Q So just the growth in the last four years
24 or five years is what you think has caused the problem?
25 A No, I think access has been important for
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1 more than that. The actual, my actual involvement goes
2 back to the early '80s when our family originally opened
3 the Plumb-Co Supply store on the Ellis property. It was
4 sold shortly thereafter, but during all of the '80s,
5 access on both ends was important to that business and
6 it's something that in all the time I was aware through
7 the prior ownerships there, both Jim Heburg and Tom
8 Ellis, no one had an idea that there was ever going to be
9 access trouble with the road.
10 When we repurchased the business in '92, we
11 purchased the business and the property and that's why
12 we're located where we are because that's where the
13 business happened to be, but I think that the continual
14 growth in that area is making it more and more important
15 that accesses stay open. It's unfortunate that the
16 railroad is running right through what seems to be the
17 heart of downtown Ponderay, but that's kind of the way it
18 is, but I do think that additional business growth is
19 making it more and more important to keep it open, yes.
20 Q So you're saying in 1987 you would have
21 been also not supportive of this closing, then, at the
22 time this agreement was made?
23 A Yes, I would not, no, sir. Had I been
24 involved in that, I would not have been supportive of the
25 closure.
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1 Q One last question. I would just like to
2 know if you're aware that Mr. Lee Wilson from the Idaho
3 Department of Transportation in his testimony stated that
4 there are sufficient points for vehicle access into the
5 commercial triangle at this time, do you, are you aware
6 of that?
7 A No, I was not.
8 Q And do you think, and I'm probably putting
9 you on the spot here just a little bit, but do you think
10 the Department of Transportation as they design the
11 highways and that that they should be responsible that
12 you have a given access into an area, that they give the
13 community access into areas as they design a highway?
14 A I think that once an access is established
15 they should either maintain that access or provide a
16 reasonable alternative, I do.
17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay, thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there further
19 questions from the Commissioners?
20 If not, Mr. Andrews, thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 (The witness left the stand.)
23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I believe the
24 next name to testify is Share Noaker?
25 MR. NOAKER: Shane Noaker.
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1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay.
2
3 SHANE A. NOAKER,
4 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
5 sworn, testified as follows:
6
7 EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. HOWELL:
10 Q Sir, could you state your name and spell
11 your last for the record?
12 A Yes, my name is Shane A. Noaker,
13 N-o-a-k-e-r.
14 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
15 capacity?
16 A I am the manager of Plumb-Co Supply.
17 Q And are you located in the commercial
18 triangle?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And could we have a business address,
21 please?
22 A Yes, it's 1109 Fontaine Drive.
23 Q And do you have a statement?
24 A My statement this evening is I pretty much
25 concur with everything that Mr. Andrews went ahead and
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1 stated already. One thing he didn't touch upon here is
2 that right now we are in the process of going ahead and
3 creating a showroom at our business and what we're hoping
4 to do is increase traffic certainly into the area
5 bringing the showroom now, and right now Plumb-Co Supply
6 is a plumbing wholesale business.
7 We do a lot of waterworks. We have quite a
8 bit of traffic and trucks, regular vehicles and,
9 hopefully, with the showroom coming in that that will go
10 ahead and increase traffic into our place from a retail
11 standpoint, and my opinion is pretty much based on the
12 access point north of Plumb-Co Supply being shut down
13 here because of the Highway 95 project and going ahead
14 and shutting down the point south here at issue here this
15 evening for Union Pacific Railroad and taking those two
16 access points, cutting them off and having to go ahead
17 and consolidate all the traffic through Tibbetts Lane, I
18 think, might be very unreasonable for our business to go
19 ahead and have to filter all the traffic through Tibbetts
20 Lane and go ahead and have Tibbetts Lane have to go and
21 deal with all that traffic, because as Mr. Andrews went
22 ahead and mentioned that with retail business going ahead
23 and increasing in the area, we're hoping it will just get
24 better through our northern portion and we're very
25 concerned that with these two access points being cut off
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1 that it's going to be very difficult for us to do
2 business in that area.
3 That's pretty much my statement here.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We appreciate
5 your statement. We're now ready for cross-examination.
6 Mr. Farley.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9
10 BY MR. FARLEY:
11 Q Mr. Noaker, are you north or south of
12 Tibbetts Drive on Fontaine?
13 A We are north.
14 Q And do you know from which direction your
15 business invitees come?
16 A I really do not.
17 Q How many different directions could they
18 come to your facility right now?
19 A Currently they can go ahead and access from
20 Tibbetts Lane, they can go ahead and access us up by
21 McDonald's there, the entrance off Bonner Mall, they can
22 access down at the railroad crossing south of us, they
23 can also go ahead and access us from the rear entry
24 portion of what I want to call Bonner Way off of Highway
25 200 and cut on across McDonald's, but in my mind here
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1 there's, like, three main access points, that being by
2 McDonald's, Tibbetts and the Union Pacific Railroad.
3 Q In fact, isn't there another access further
4 north of Bonner Mall? I think one is the Schweitzer
5 Plaza Road off of U.S. 95.
6 A I'm not aware of that particular area of
7 crossing.
8 Q Are you aware of Triangle Drive?
9 A Correct, yes.
10 Q And you can access this area off 95 along
11 that route, can't you, even though it's somewhat
12 circuitous?
13 A You could, yes. I'm trying to keep it more
14 of a centralized area, though, however.
15 Q As a businessman, I suppose that if you
16 have three accesses and you lose one, you don't want to
17 lose that one; isn't that true?
18 A Well, given the circumstances right now, it
19 would be very advantageous for us to keep it open,
20 certainly.
21 Q And more accesses to a business the better
22 because you're more exposed to people traveling through;
23 isn't that true?
24 A I would assume so.
25 MR. FARLEY: Thank you.
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1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Further
2 questions? Are you finished?
3 MR. FARLEY: I'm sorry, yes, I am, thank
4 you.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. HOWELL:
10 Q Mr. Noaker, do you know who maintains
11 Fontaine Drive?
12 A No, sir, I do not.
13 Q How long have you been there?
14 A I've been employed by Plumb-Co Supply up
15 here in Sandpoint for approximately six years now.
16 Q And in the wintertime have you ever seen a
17 snowplow on Fontaine Drive?
18 A No, sir. I believe they go ahead and plow
19 it very early in the morning prior to when I go ahead and
20 get to work.
21 MR. HOWELL: All right, thank you.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
23
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HAMAN:
4 Q If I understand your statement, you were
5 saying that your business would be substantially impacted
6 by the closure of the access at the old crossing.
7 A Well, I think my statement is saying that I
8 feel where the traffic pattern that will be put in place
9 here with two of the access points being closed off here
10 and the traffic pattern that will be part of that I think
11 will be unreasonable for our business to go ahead or I
12 should say it will be difficult to service the customers
13 like we do right now from a standpoint of the traffic
14 pattern.
15 Q Are you saying that you would reconsider
16 renewing your lease if the old crossing is closed?
17 A That's a question I can't answer.
18 Mr. Andrews, certainly being the owner of the area or the
19 property itself, could probably answer that.
20 MR. HAMAN: All right. No further
21 questions.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions of the
23 Commission?
24 I just have a couple questions. Hopefully,
25 they'll be very brief.
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1 EXAMINATION
2
3 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:
4 Q When did you first find out about the
5 possible closure of the old crossing?
6 A I believe we had our first meeting down at
7 Community Hall in February, I believe it was. Sir, is
8 that correct, then?
9 MR. HOWELL: Mr. Chairman, he's referring,
10 I believe, to the settlement conference that was held in
11 February of this year.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, and I've
13 seen that in the record.
14 Q BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Would you be
15 surprised to find out that talk of closure had been going
16 on for that specific crossing since around 1986?
17 A I wouldn't say I would be surprised, but it
18 was certainly something that concerned us when we went
19 ahead and heard of that, but a surprise, no, I wouldn't
20 say it would be a surprise. We just were more concerned
21 about the situation.
22 Q So as you think about growth of your
23 business, a possible new showroom, do you think that
24 somewhere along the line that someone might have
25 disclosed to you that closure of that old crossing was
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1 not just a possibility but was actively being discussed?
2 A Well, could you state the question one more
3 time, please?
4 Q As you look towards the future growth of
5 your business and planning in that area, I guess what I'm
6 trying to get to is who do you think should have told you
7 that closure has been actively discussed at that site
8 since around 1986, closure of the old railroad crossing?
9 A Well, that would be difficult for myself to
10 say what entities should go ahead and keep either the
11 community or the business owner abreast of that
12 particular situation. The gravity of that particular
13 agreement based on, I guess, my knowledge, it would be
14 difficult for me to say, hey, would that be something
15 that would be very important as a business owner or not,
16 but it would certainly be nice to know about it, to go
17 ahead and at least pursue it, but like I said, not even
18 knowing about the situation and the gravity of it, I'd
19 say if you went ahead like most the business owners here,
20 I think they've all gone ahead and stated that no, they
21 had no idea about this situation, but is it a concern to
22 them, I think they would all agree that yes, it's a
23 concern to them, but you just have to read between the
24 lines as far as how serious would that really be, this
25 agreement here back in '87, how serious would it be to
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1 your business and I've never gone ahead and encountered
2 this in any other kind of situation in my experience.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Appreciate your
4 comments, thank you. Are there further questions from
5 the Commissioners? Thank you.
6 (The witness left the stand.)
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Dale VanStone.
8
9 DALE W. VANSTONE,
10 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
11 sworn, testified as follows:
12
13 EXAMINATION
14
15 BY MR. HOWELL:
16 Q Could you tell us your full name and spell
17 your last for the record, please?
18 A My full name is Dale W. VanStone. Last
19 name is V-a-n-S-t-o-n-e.
20 Q And, Mr. VanStone, whom are you employed by
21 and in what capacity?
22 A I'm employed by Bonner County. I'm a
23 County Commissioner and chairman of the County
24 Commissioner Board.
25 Q I think we have the Commission's address.
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1 Do you have a statement you'd like to give us?
2 A Yes. We're a little concerned about the
3 economic well-being of Bonner County and we feel that the
4 closure of this crossing would definitely have a negative
5 impact to the businesses along Fontaine Drive. I'm also
6 a farmer in the area and have used the Co-op a number of
7 times for refuelings. From a trucking standpoint, I
8 think that would be the preferred route for trucks to
9 enter, even going south back on to 95 or going northeast
10 on to 200. It's easier to exit that way than any other
11 way.
12 If you push this truck traffic more to the
13 north into the Bonner Mall area, there's congestion there
14 already, the truck traffic is definitely going to have a
15 big impact with that up there. Right now the crossing is
16 not in very good repair. For the county, we have a
17 lot -- our county roads cross a lot of the tracks, not
18 only Union Pacific and Burlington Northern but Montana
19 Rail, that is probably from my opinion the worst crossing
20 in the county to cross over and if the crossing was in
21 better repair, you'd probably definitely see more
22 traffic, especially the truck traffic, using it than they
23 are right now.
24 As was brought up earlier, there on
25 Tibbetts Lane entering on to 95, that has a steep grade
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1 to it. It would be not in the wise interest of safety to
2 even use that as a major exit route for trucks in the
3 wintertime. It's been mentioned a light by ITD, an
4 option of improvements to 95 there, maybe a light going
5 in there, we've got a lot of lights already, will have a
6 lot of lights on 95 north going on that stretch. I think
7 in their plan of scoping it's not being recommended a
8 light be put there and I would go along with that
9 recommendation that it would probably impact the safety
10 issue more than anything else there.
11 If a light is not put there, truck traffic
12 is definitely going to be pushed either to the north if
13 the crossing is closed and you definitely are going to
14 have a congestion problem there with the big semis using
15 that. I know that the Cenex station there is one of the
16 major refueling stations for trucks in the area, for
17 loggers, major trucking companies, dump trucks, et cetera
18 use that as one of the fueling spots in the county.
19 The county also uses it as one of their
20 major refueling areas, so if that crossing is closed,
21 it's going to definitely change the flow of traffic out
22 of that area and it will push it up Fontaine Drive up to
23 the Bonner Mall crossing or out on to 95 using Tibbetts
24 and if improvements go in on 95 as they have planned,
25 they're not going to allow for a left-hand turn for
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1 trucking to go south on to 95 to head back into
2 Sandpoint. You'll have to go up north and make your turn
3 at the stoplight.
4 If they put a stoplight at Tibbetts, I
5 think it's going to have a big safety factor there with
6 the slope coming off of Tibbetts, especially in the
7 wintertime. It's a safety issue that I think IDT should
8 be concerned with and the IPUC should be concerned with.
9 We've had a statement, I think the
10 emergency vehicles is a concern to the county and the
11 flow of traffic. The better your traffic flows, the
12 better it is for everybody, especially emergency vehicles
13 because those crossings do get plugged up with trains on
14 them some time and some time you have no other
15 alternative but backtrack and trying to find a crossing
16 that's open and to some people that's time and it might
17 mean life or death to some people.
18 That's basically the statement of the
19 county. We're just concerned with the economic
20 well-being of the closure of that to the businesses of
21 the county. That's basically my statement.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
23 Mr. VanStone. We're ready for cross-examination.
24 Mr. Farley from Union Pacific?
25 MR. FARLEY: Thank you.
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. FARLEY:
4 Q Mr. VanStone, how long have you been with
5 the Bonner County Commission?
6 A I've been a Commissioner for about five
7 years.
8 Q And before that did you have any
9 association with the County Commissioners?
10 A No, I was just a private citizen.
11 Q How long have you lived here in this area?
12 A All my life I've been here, 53 years.
13 Q And you've watched that commercial triangle
14 develop over the years?
15 A Yes, it has. It's been one of the more
16 economic areas of growth in the county that we've seen
17 here in the last 10 years.
18 Q What's the draw to that commercial
19 triangle? Why are businesses going there?
20 A Well, I think the land was available for
21 growth, it was an area that had Highway 95 on the west
22 side and Highway 200 on the east side. It was one of the
23 main traffic corridors entering into the Sandpoint area
24 and exiting Sandpoint area, so it was a natural for
25 economic growth to expand. Sandpoint did not have the
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1 land available to have the economic development in the
2 Sandpoint corridor at all.
3 Q You were aware when the old U.S. 95 was
4 moved from, I believe it used to be at the old crossing,
5 didn't it?
6 A The old -- now, what crossing are you
7 referring to, the one that's at issue?
8 Q Yes, the one we're referring to here as the
9 old crossing.
10 A That was the main crossing over to the
11 other side off of 200 outside of the Kootenai Cutoff
12 crossing.
13 Q And then they realigned U.S. 95 and put in,
14 I believe, an underpass?
15 A Yeah, that had to be done prior to any
16 development at the mall, I think, what I can remember.
17 Q But that provided a significant increase in
18 access into that area because there was no railroad
19 crossing there at all; right? You could now pass
20 underneath the railroad tracks.
21 A I'm not quite following you where --
22 Q Where the intersection now of State Highway
23 200 and U.S. 95 now meets --
24 A Right.
25 Q -- and U.S. 95 goes north and goes
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1 underneath the railroad tracks, so the railroad crossing
2 was actually eliminated?
3 A Yeah, I can't really recall what transpired
4 back then, but as far as I can remember, the crossing up
5 there what they call the diamond crossing has been there
6 for a good number of years. I can't really tell when it
7 was put there. I know the Kootenai Cutoff crossing has
8 been there for a good number of years, from my
9 recollection. The one that they put in for the access to
10 the Bonner Mall was put in in the middles '80s, somewhere
11 in that vicinity that I can remember.
12 Q Let's talk about that one for a minute.
13 Did that improve access into this commercial triangle
14 area?
15 A Oh, definitely, because the mall was the
16 main attraction of that development when it started to
17 take off out there.
18 Q Were you aware at the time that the new
19 crossing of any agreement -- excuse me, do you live in
20 Ponderay?
21 A No, I don't.
22 Q Where do you live?
23 A Out at Hope, but I use 200 to enter into
24 Sandpoint.
25 Q Were you aware of the understanding that
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1 the Railroad and the City of Ponderay had that the new
2 crossing into Bonner Mall was going to actually be a
3 relocation of the old crossing and the old crossing would
4 be closed?
5 A I don't know any specifics of what
6 agreement was made. I knew there was some talk of a
7 change for having the one crossing go in to enter the
8 Bonner Mall area in exchange for a closure of the other
9 crossing and specifics of that and how that came about, I
10 have no idea. That was just more or less hearsay as far
11 as my part knowing anything about it.
12 Q I understand. Over the years did you
13 become aware that the Public Utilities Commission was
14 involved in Union Pacific's request to close the crossing
15 and had hearings with regard to closing?
16 A Just recently. You know, I belong to the
17 Bonner County Area Transportation team and we were in the
18 scoping process with IDT on improvements to 95 that
19 they're trying to put together and the access issue off
20 of Tibbetts was one of the main concerns from the
21 businesses. It was brought to our attention that if that
22 is done the way they have initially laid it out, nothing
23 set in stone yet, it would definitely have a big impact
24 on the traffic, especially the truck traffic, going south
25 out of the Fontaine/Tibbetts Drive area, and then it came
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1 to light that the crossing was scheduled for closure at
2 some point, but then it made it a bigger issue did that
3 really need to be closed and from a flow of traffic and
4 all that, I definitely would see that as it definitely
5 has a need to be open.
6 Q Were the other members of the Commission
7 aware of this possibility the old crossing was going to
8 be closed and in fact that was the understanding with the
9 City of Ponderay?
10 A I can't really speak on their behalf, but I
11 think there was an awareness that there was an issue with
12 that crossing sometime in the future that had to be dealt
13 with in some fashion.
14 Q What plans has the County Commission made
15 or anyone else for that matter with regard to access in
16 this commercial area if and when the old crossing is
17 closed?
18 A We have as far as the county, there's no
19 county roads that are really being impacted here. I
20 think it's more of an issue with the City of Ponderay as
21 far as roads go and ITD. From the county standpoint, we
22 are concerned about the economic climate of the county.
23 We would right now like to have as many businesses here
24 as we can. I can see economic hardship to the businesses
25 on Fontaine Drive if that crossing is closed which might
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1 mean them pulling out and relocating in some other area
2 of the county or just pulling out of the county
3 altogether, so it's more of an economic well-being that
4 we can see that could be impacted here.
5 Q Surely you're not suggesting that these
6 businesses located into this commercial triangle area
7 because the old crossing is open?
8 A No. Well, I think it's more that they
9 didn't locate there because of that, I think the closure
10 has a bigger impact on it now. I can see the truck
11 traffic being a major player here of how are you going to
12 deal with the truck traffic, the City of Ponderay, ITD.
13 They're going to have to go somewhere with it. Vehicular
14 traffic can maneuver around pretty good, but the long
15 semis, they're either going to have to go north out to
16 the Bonner Mall area by McDonald's to exit out or if you
17 want to go on 200 east or 95 going south, you're not
18 going to -- where their plans are presently laid out,
19 they will not provide an exit out of Tibbetts going south
20 for any traffic.
21 Q So something is going to have to be done to
22 improve the access within that commercial triangle?
23 A Right.
24 Q And you believe that there will actually be
25 businesses that leave as a result of that old crossing
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1 being closed?
2 A It's hard to say how they will be
3 impacted. I think what you see on service here that it's
4 hard to come to the conclusion there will be a positive
5 impact to their businesses out there. What I could see
6 is probably more of a negative impact. It will
7 definitely have a rerouting of traffic flows which is
8 less desirable than it is right now if that crossing is
9 closed and the improvements go to 95 that they have
10 projected that will take place.
11 Q In your opinion, did the new crossing at
12 Bonner Mall improve access into the commercial triangle
13 area?
14 A Well, yes, I think it did in that area.
15 The Bonner Mall I think was the reaction to have that
16 crossing put there because that made it more of a direct
17 route into the mall area which is the main shopping core
18 of that triangle out there.
19 Q So on balance, opening the new crossing was
20 better even if it means closing the old crossing?
21 A It all depends what businesses you are
22 coming from. If you're a Bonner Mall business, you'd
23 have to agree that, yeah, the Bonner Mall crossing was
24 the better of --
25 Q I'm talking about the economic development
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1 of the entire commercial triangular area, wasn't it a net
2 improvement to have that?
3 A Definitely.
4 Q You said that the worst crossing in the
5 county was the old crossing and I assume you're referring
6 to the surface?
7 A Yeah, just the crossing itself or the
8 planking on it or what is there is pretty well
9 deteriorated.
10 Q What about the sight distances, isn't that
11 a problem at this crossing, particularly when there's
12 cars parked on that other track?
13 A As far as vehicles using it that cross over
14 today?
15 Q Yes, from a safety point of view.
16 A Well, I think, yeah, the trains that I've
17 experienced there are always slow-moving trains and it's
18 not a high-speed track by any means. It's just more of a
19 switching area where they move cars around and exit out
20 over the bridge at Sand Creek. It can be a problem, I
21 think, but from my knowledge, there never has been an
22 accident that I know of there, but there might have
23 been. I think maybe Union Pacific would have a better
24 knowledge of that. If there had been an accident, I'm
25 sure they'd be aware of it.
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1 Q Or the Idaho Transportation Department?
2 A Possibly, yeah, I think somebody would have
3 knowledge. I have none. In recent years I don't think
4 there's been one there and traffic has definitely picked
5 up, there's no question about that because of the
6 businesses that have developed along Fontaine.
7 MR. FARLEY: Thank you. No further
8 questions.
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
10
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MR. HOWELL:
14 Q Commissioner VanStone, do you know who
15 maintains Fontaine Drive?
16 A I think it would be the responsibility of
17 the City of Ponderay. Whether they contract it out for
18 snow removal and maintenance, I'm not sure.
19 Q But the responsibility, then, for that
20 roadway would fall, in your opinion, to the city and not
21 the county?
22 A That part of Fontaine I think would be.
23 That's from my observation. The Mayor, I think, would
24 probably address that better than I could.
25 Q You and Mr. Farley were discussing various
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1 alternatives to improving internal circulation as well as
2 access to the commercial triangle, would one of the
3 possible improvements be to improve the private alley
4 that runs between the new crossing and Fontaine and then
5 extend that out to U.S. 95?
6 A It would definitely help. Right now
7 they've got speed bumps in it. My understanding and just
8 from what I've seen, I thought that alley was there just
9 for the businesses that use that. There's a motel and
10 the furniture store and a Les Schwab in behind it. It's
11 not really a traffic alley. It's just there for
12 businesses to exit their businesses from the rear.
13 Q But given your familiarity with the area,
14 if the alley were improved to highway standards or
15 roadway standards, would it not be a better way to move
16 from east to west in that interior section?
17 A If you were forcing the traffic to go north
18 out of, say, the businesses to the south of that, yes, it
19 would definitely help because the only alternative would
20 be to enter up there at the McDonald's intersection and
21 that's congested anyway and it would be hard for trucks
22 to maneuver out of there. If ITD doesn't put a stop
23 light on Tibbetts, you're going to have trucks entering
24 that intersection up there at the mall trying to get on
25 to 95 to go south, so that's definitely going to be a
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1 problem of traffic congestion there and the big semis are
2 going to have problems with that turn, there's no
3 question, so I'm not really sure kind of what
4 improvements IDT would have to address that.
5 Q Well, let me ask two more questions. One
6 is if some entity did improve the alley, that would
7 eliminate this tight turning traffic problem and another
8 tight turn back here, wouldn't it?
9 A It would help the flow going on to 200 if
10 trucks want to enter 200 to go either south or north on
11 200.
12 Q And I believe you alluded to earlier that
13 if Tibbetts -- if the improvements to U.S. 95 restrict
14 south turning traffic, wouldn't another alternative be to
15 extend the alley all the way through to U.S. 95 and allow
16 south turning traffic at that point?
17 A It's possible. I'm not sure if you're
18 talking about another stoplight on '95 there, you'd have
19 it pretty well lit up all the way through there.
20 Q Well, are you aware of any -- well, that
21 would be part of the scoping action that IDT would take,
22 isn't it?
23 A Right, I think so, but I know they're
24 committed to try to have as little lights as they can on
25 any major highway. I think we're all concerned about
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1 that. You don't want to get into a situation where you
2 have stoplight after stoplight and the traffic has
3 increased, no question. We have traffic flow problems
4 all over. I'd hate to see something, some action taken
5 that's going to add to it.
6 Q If the old crossing were to be retained, in
7 your capacity as a County Commissioner, do you believe it
8 would improve public safety to signalize that crossing?
9 A Well, I think any crossing that has lights
10 and signals on it definitely has a benefit to the safety
11 factor, no question about that.
12 Q To the best of your knowledge, has the
13 Railroad approached the county to see if money were
14 available for signalization?
15 A Not through the county and I can't really
16 speak for the City of Ponderay, but the county has never
17 been approached, just probably realizing the jurisdiction
18 is more of the City of Ponderay and ITD, how they review
19 that.
20 MR. HOWELL: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman?
23
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HAMAN:
4 Q You stated in response to Mr. Farley's
5 questions, one of his questions, that the addition of a
6 new crossing was profitable for the businesses within the
7 commercial triangle; is that correct?
8 A Yes, I did, that's my own observation.
9 Q And that's fine, and it was profitable
10 because the triangle now had two open crossings; is that
11 correct?
12 A Correct, yes.
13 Q Okay, in your position as County
14 Commissioner, do you have any knowledge about whether the
15 closure would affect the property values of the property
16 within the commercial triangle?
17 A Well, I think that's just a judgment call.
18 I think if you close the one crossing, it's going to have
19 a negative impact to the businesses off Fontaine, it's
20 going to change the traffic flow, and like I say, the
21 Co-op is a major truck refueling, so the truck traffic
22 from my viewpoint and I think the county's is going to
23 have a definite impact. The county trucks use that for
24 refueling, some of our long-hauls for the solid waste
25 come in there and they are longer than the normal
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1 long-hauls, they'll have trouble exiting out of there if
2 they have to be pushed north on to the mall intersection.
3 Q Do you anticipate increased accidents on
4 the new crossing if the old crossing is closed?
5 A I don't know. I mean, that definitely
6 would put more traffic on it, but it's hard to say.
7 Q More traffic would be --
8 A The more traffic you put anyplace, I guess
9 the odds are something could happen.
10 MR. HAMAN: I have no further questions.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there
12 questions from the Commissioners?
13 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I have one. Go
14 ahead.
15
16 EXAMINATION
17
18 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
19 Q Commissioner VanStone, I heard you say
20 you've been on the County Commission for five years.
21 A That's correct.
22 Q So you're not aware of the 1986 agreement
23 between the City of Ponderay and Union Pacific Railroad?
24 A Well, no specifics. I was aware that there
25 was some settlement reached in some fashion to get the
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1 other crossing, the main crossing into the Bonner Mall,
2 in, but it did not concern the county, I think, as far as
3 any partner in that agreement.
4 Q Well, it looked to me from our Orders that
5 the Commission got involved because in November of 1986,
6 the Railroad began to demolish this crossing and some
7 business named Sandpoint Discount Warehouse complained.
8 Is Sandpoint Discount Warehouse still there?
9 A They moved out and that's where the Co-op
10 store now is located in what was the old discount
11 warehouse market.
12 Q So in response to that in a petition filed
13 by the City of Ponderay to get the crossing closed, the
14 Commission held an expedited hearing almost 12 years ago
15 on June 3rd, 1987, probably in this very room, but at
16 that hearing, I noted that a county clerk testified, no
17 name was given, so I don't know if it's a new county
18 clerk or if you've had the same one --
19 A Probably a new one by now.
20 Q -- that the Bonner Mall now owns the
21 vacated portion of old U.S. 95 and the Commission
22 expressed some concern that because this portion of the
23 roadway was in private ownership that businesses might be
24 denied access from the new crossing and so it recommended
25 that either the City of Ponderay or Bonner County should
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1 own that portion of old U.S. 95 which controls access to
2 the new crossing and I guess my question is, has the
3 county done anything to acquire ownership of that or have
4 there been any discussions?
5 A Not to my knowledge. Since I've been on
6 the board, nothing has been brought to our attention that
7 this is an issue that the county should get involved with
8 as far as a public right of way or old roadway or such.
9 Q So you're unaware if there are any concerns
10 with access over this portion of old U.S. 95 which
11 apparently Bonner Mall now owns?
12 A Not that I'm aware of. All I know of face
13 value what's there today, what the traffic flow is using.
14 COMMISSIONER SMITH: All right, those are
15 my only questions. Thank you.
16 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Before we pass
17 the microphone to Commissioner Hansen, we'd just like to
18 note that none of us were on the Commission in 1986.
19 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: In fact, I'll just
20 comment Commission Kjellander was probably still in high
21 school.
22
23
24
25
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1 EXAMINATION
2
3 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
4 Q Commissioner, I've just got one question.
5 Did I understand you correctly that you stated that
6 closing this crossing would have a much greater effect on
7 truck traffic than it would probably the automobile
8 traffic going in and out of this area; is that true?
9 A That's correct. I think if you wanted to
10 weigh the impact out, I think the flow of the truck
11 traffic that use Fontaine Drive and Tibbetts and Tibbetts
12 is tied to the improvements of 95 is how that will be
13 dealt with, if it goes as they have scoped it out to be,
14 there will be no access for truck traffic entering 95 to
15 go south out of Tibbetts and if the diamond crossing is
16 closed, everybody is going to have to go north if you're
17 a trucker to exit out at the crossing up by McDonald's
18 and the Bonner Mall, and I'm not sure how their plans are
19 going to deal with the turning up there, but it's
20 congested already and it's going to add more congestion,
21 and when you throw trucks in with a mix of cars, you've
22 got some major problems, I feel.
23 Q One other question. Would you say that the
24 businesses in this area are affected by truck traffic?
25 A Well, I think the Cenex store, there's an
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1 RV lot there, a maintenance/sales shop, the Plumb-Co
2 Supply probably would have the biggest impact, they
3 definitely would have trucks servicing their businesses
4 and then vehicle traffic, too. Like I say, it's going to
5 impact the mall, but from my viewpoint, I think trucks
6 would have the biggest disadvantage if things would
7 change out there right now.
8 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay, thank you.
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Further questions
10 from the Commissioners? If not, we have seven more
11 people who are signed up to testify tonight. What we'd
12 like to do right now is take about a ten-minute recess
13 and go off the record and that would mean that we need to
14 be back and ready to go just before the top of the hour,
15 and also before we depart, our next scheduled individual
16 to testify is Ralph and I can't make out your last name.
17 AUDIENCE: Sletager.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Sletager? Thank
19 you. I just wanted to let you know you'll be up first
20 when we return, so we'll go ahead and take that
21 ten-minute recess.
22 (The witness left the stand.)
23 (Recess.)
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We'll go back on
25 the record now and before we move on, I also want to
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1 recognize State Representative John Campbell sitting in
2 the back of the room. It's good to see you again, John,
3 thanks for coming out this evening. And we're now ready
4 to move on to Ralph Sletager.
5
6 RALPH SLETAGER,
7 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
8 sworn, testified as follows:
9
10 EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. HOWELL:
13 Q You probably know the routine by now, I
14 need your name and spell your last name for the record.
15 A Okay, it's Ralph Sletager and it's
16 S-l-e-t-a-g-e-r and I live at 10494 North Boyer.
17 Q And do you have a business in the
18 commercial triangle?
19 A I don't. We have property just out -- I
20 guess it would be considered part of the commercial
21 triangle, but it's east of the tracks.
22 Q And do you have a statement you'd like to
23 give?
24 A Yeah, I think, if I understand the function
25 here tonight, it's to give public testimony as to whether
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1 the crossing is reasonable and necessary for vehicular
2 access and I think there's three things that indicate
3 that it is. You know, the safety concerns are one, the
4 emergency vehicles. I think the majority of the public
5 testimony tonight has been from business owners and, as
6 far as I can tell, uncontested petitions of consumers
7 that the access to that area is desirable over the access
8 through the Bonner Mall.
9 There's a number of other reasons that I
10 would add to that as far as just the convenience to
11 access and some other things as a consumer, but I think
12 that point has been pretty well covered.
13 The third thing I think is that it's an
14 integral part and was an integral part of the original
15 Highway 95 bypass plan. I don't really think that -- I
16 think Fontaine Road if you look back on it was intended
17 to be a frontage road connecting 200 and 95 at that
18 location and the crossing, the new crossing, as much as
19 it was was never intended to satisfy that purpose. It is
20 intended to feed the mall. It has no connection, public
21 connection, to 95 in any meaningful way of what was old
22 95 which is now Fontaine, so the original plan as
23 evidence I'd like to present on that tonight is I've
24 heard, you know, the statements range from political to,
25 you know, legal questions on it, but in my condemnation
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1 decree for our piece of property which is out there, it
2 cites as one of the access points, one -- I guess I'll
3 back up a second, but as I understand condemnation, one
4 of the issues that comes up in a condemnation is
5 reasonable access for the remaining property not taken,
6 and in my condemnation, on our property one of the access
7 points given to us was from 95 at that crossing, so while
8 we aren't in what's considered now, and what most of the
9 people have talked about, the main commercial triangle,
10 we're in that piece of property that's surrounded by the
11 junction of Highway 95 and 200, so I guess in short, I'd
12 like to see it remain open and I think that serving the
13 businesses out there is a critical part of any highway
14 system and one of the problems that gets everybody into
15 this is the length of time it took from when Highway 95
16 bypass was planned and where we're sitting now with
17 Highway 95.
18 It still isn't built and there's been a
19 tremendous amount of delay and public comment and
20 testimony and so right now it looks to me as if when
21 you're driving back to Coeur d'Alene, you'll probably see
22 maybe 18 traffic lights between Sandpoint and Coeur
23 d'Alene, I've heard of three or four different options
24 suggested on 95 tonight and so really what is the bypass
25 going to bypass? It's going to end up into another
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1 traffic congestion in a different city, so I'm not
2 debating the bypass, I've heard that and I see that being
3 where the root of this problem is, it was delayed. The
4 piece of property that we have was denied commercial
5 exposure since 1968, I believe was the condemnation, and
6 at the time I believe it was one of the only commercial
7 pieces of property in the area served by either highway,
8 I believe the A & W and the motel out there, I can't
9 think of the name of it right now, and then Dockin's
10 Tractor is what this was and then subsequently it was
11 Diamond Lumber Company on our property, so I think if
12 maybe some of the other people looked at their
13 condemnation decrees when the highway purchased their
14 access through there, they might find similar language to
15 what's in ours about connecting to the two different
16 highways, so let's see, I guess that's probably the
17 length of my statement.
18 I would like to thank the Commission, the
19 time that you guys take doing the public's work and you
20 don't often get a chance to do that up in Sandpoint, and
21 I guess I'm open to questions. If anybody is unfamiliar
22 with the piece of property we have, I can point it out
23 there.
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, thank you,
25 Mr. Sletager. Let's move for cross-examination from
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1 Mr. Farley.
2
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4
5 BY MR. FARLEY:
6 Q If you wouldn't mind, would you please
7 point your property out?
8 A Okay, it's off the board here
9 [indicating]. It's not on the board there.
10 Q It's up around this end?
11 MR. HAMAN: Would this map be more
12 helpful?
13 THE WITNESS: Where is the Y here?
14 MR. HUNT: Clear down at the bottom.
15 THE WITNESS: Where's the -- there's four
16 crossings right here for the railroad. We're off the
17 board on that one as well. What am I doing testifying?
18 I'm not on any of the maps.
19 Q BY MR. FARLEY: And you're located east of
20 the railroad tracks?
21 A That's right. The crossing is designated
22 as our frontage road access to Highway 95.
23 Q And that condemnation was in 1986?
24 A I believe '68.
25 Q 1968?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q When did the old Highway 95 get shifted
3 over for this bypass? Was that when the condemnation
4 occurred?
5 A I can't testify to that. I don't have the
6 knowledge of that.
7 Q I guess my question is you were given
8 access to Highway 95, but now Highway 95 has been moved,
9 hasn't it?
10 A I was given -- the condemnation, I believe,
11 was part of a multiple project that included the Y itself
12 and it included the continuation of Highway 95 and the
13 bypass, but it was Highway 200 that was part of
14 condemnation.
15 Q Do you have access now to State Highway
16 200?
17 A We have access -- yes.
18 Q Do you have access to the new U.S. 95?
19 A Well, the new U.S. 95 that this was taken
20 for was the bypass that has yet to be built. You know,
21 the temporary 95 which I believe is what we're driving on
22 now which was contemplated to be the off ramp to the
23 bypass at our end of it, the new 95 isn't done, but it
24 actually goes alongside of our property and adjoins it.
25 Q Do you have access on to that road?
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1 A Through this crossing.
2 Q But you don't have direct access on to what
3 I refer to as the new U.S. 95, the one that intersects
4 with State Highway 200 down at the light?
5 A No. If you look at the overall plan on
6 that, that was originally the off ramp coming off 95 down
7 to that Y.
8 Q But with your access to State Highway 200,
9 you can get on to U.S. 95?
10 A Only going around the loop down to the Y.
11 Q Were you aware that a portion of the old
12 U.S. 95, I believe the lower part or I should say the
13 northern part of Fontaine Drive, was abandoned or
14 vacated?
15 A No, and I believe that in the condemnation
16 decree I have the highway station marker that accesses 95
17 is delineated as well which I believe is in the Co-op
18 area.
19 Q If the old crossing is closed, you can
20 still access the commercial triangle area, can't you?
21 A No.
22 Q You have access to Highway 200?
23 A I have access to Highway 200 and I can go
24 down through -- you mean the Bonner crossing there, the
25 Bonner Mall crossing?
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1 Q To the Bonner Mall crossing or back to
2 Tibbetts Drive along U.S. 95 or back to Bonner Mall Way?
3 A Yes, I believe I can always get to it. Can
4 I clarify my point? My point was the condemnation was
5 very specific on the highway station that we came off of
6 on 95 and the crossing that we went to to the property.
7 Any change in that frontage road access changes a lot of
8 things, so going around the loop or going three miles
9 down and across and then a left turn doesn't constitute
10 the simple frontage road access that we had previously
11 enjoyed if the whole project were built. I mean, you've
12 got to envision the bypass being built the way it was
13 planned.
14 Q Do you know if there's any efforts by the
15 state or the county, whoever was involved in that, I
16 assume the state, to complete U.S. 95 the way you're
17 talking about?
18 A I believe they're working on it right now.
19 Q And that has to do with the access into the
20 commercial triangle area?
21 A I haven't made any of those meetings, but I
22 know they're working on the -- the commercial triangle
23 area didn't exist at the time the bypass and these
24 condemnation decrees were all written up, so are you
25 saying they're designing the highway around the
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1 commercial area? I don't know that they are.
2 Q I don't know, I'm just wondering if you're
3 aware that what you're saying was to be the completed
4 project is going forward?
5 A I believe it is.
6 Q Do you have a business down in this area or
7 just raw property?
8 A It is a rental. We have about three acres
9 that is right at the tip of the -- I think it's the last
10 commercial piece that isn't surrounded by right of way.
11 Q And do you rent that property, is that what
12 you're saying?
13 A We do until we see the direction of the
14 bypass and everything else, then we'll, of course, try to
15 put something in there with a higher and better use than
16 it now has and access is a big issue to it.
17 Q So depending on what occurs here, you'll
18 develop the property around those types of decisions so
19 that you've got the access that you need?
20 A I don't have control of the access that I
21 need. The state highway has purchased the access, except
22 for the two pieces, so I would be dealing with the Idaho
23 Department of Transportation to reacquire access.
24 Q Do you have any reason to believe they
25 wouldn't give you access?
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1 A Well, they might.
2 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. HOWELL:
8 Q Could you provide the Commission with
9 copies of your condemnation decrees and orders and maps?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And would you do so? Could you provide the
12 Commission with those copies?
13 A I believe I got them from the ITD and I
14 think I've still got them around. I can see if I can dig
15 them out, sure.
16 MR. HOWELL: All right, thank you. No
17 further questions.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
19 MR. HAMAN: I don't have any questions.
20 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
21 the Commissioners?
22 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just one and I think
23 maybe you just answered it.
24
25
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1 EXAMINATION
2
3 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
4 Q I was going to ask, was the condemnation by
5 the state?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Okay. I didn't know if it was the county
8 or --
9 A No, the state actually started the bypass
10 in 1950 and it's been fought against and there's been --
11 Q It makes the Commission's 12-year expedited
12 process look pretty good.
13 A It's looking real good.
14 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
15 Mr. Sletager.
16 (The witness left the stand.)
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We'll now call
18 D. J. Cavanaugh.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 DONALD J. CAVANAUGH,
2 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
3 sworn, testified as follows:
4
5 EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. HOWELL:
8 Q Could you state your full name and spell
9 your last for the record, please?
10 A Donald J. Cavanaugh, C-a-v-a-n-a-u-g-h.
11 Q Mr. Cavanaugh, whom are you employed by and
12 in what capacity?
13 A I own the Papa Murphy's on Fontaine Drive.
14 Q And could you give us a business address?
15 A The address there is 1010 Fontaine Drive.
16 Q All right, thank you, and your statement,
17 sir?
18 A Well, first of all, I'd like to say that
19 the businesses on Fontaine Drive certainly have made the
20 property more valuable and the traffic has increased
21 quite a bit since we've been there. Our lowest customer
22 count since we've been there is 3,500 customers in four
23 weeks. The Bonner Mall Way is being discussed of being
24 closed on the north end, now you're going to close the
25 railroad tracks on the south end. People when we decided
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 to move to Sandpoint, we had four locations that we had
2 to look at and we brought in our representatives who said
3 that by the access that is in that area this was a spot
4 to build our store.
5 Now, my wife and I put all our money in it
6 and now we're going to close all the accesses. Like I
7 said, 3,500 people come to our store every four weeks, so
8 we started that petition that the other people had and we
9 started it on Friday afternoon and we built it up in the
10 weekend.
11 The railroad track is in bad shape and
12 people still use it. If it was in good shape, there'd be
13 traffic across that thing all the time. You know, you
14 guys talk about -- I don't remember what the figures were
15 for putting signals on and that kind of stuff, but the
16 taxpayers in this area pay plenty of taxes, the Railroad
17 makes plenty of money whether they're crossing trains
18 there or not, you know, why can't we put a crossing
19 there?
20 You were talking about truck traffic, we
21 have three deliveries a week from a produce company that
22 has 26-foot trucks. We have at least one delivery on a
23 semi-truck that would have to come in and negotiate that
24 Tibbetts access because they can't come in through the
25 Bonner Mall Way because you can't make -- as they're
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1 coming north, they can't make that turn to come back and
2 then when they go out, they head south back to Coeur
3 d'Alene.
4 Our customers when they're heading south,
5 we are what we call a destination stop, people don't just
6 go by and pick up a pizza, they usually know they're
7 going there to get it, so the people who come from
8 Sandpoint come north and if you come out of Sandpoint at
9 5:00 o'clock in the afternoon, you're not going to cross
10 95 and go south if you did not have a light at Tibbetts,
11 which the state department says we're not allowed to have
12 that, so our people have got to go out through all the
13 traffic in the mall, sit at the railroad crossing and if
14 there happens to not be a train there, then they can go
15 across and turn south.
16 When I attended the Transportation
17 Department's display they had at the mall, they said that
18 there were no traffic lights going to be in the area, it
19 was all going to be right turn access. You'd turn right
20 and you went up and made a U-turn and turned around and
21 back the other way, so we had -- oh, I forget who it was
22 asked the question did our businesses move there due to
23 the access, absolutely. There's a whole bunch of other
24 places in Sandpoint we could have moved to. Mike said it
25 was fortunate that we have long-term leases, but if I
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1 can't get my customers in, that long-term lease isn't
2 going to do him or I any good.
3 That's pretty much my statement.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We're ready now
5 for cross examination. Mr. Farley.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. FARLEY:
10 Q I think you mentioned something about
11 Bonner Mall Way being closed?
12 A The access there.
13 Q From --
14 A Right there -- well, I don't know how
15 they're going to do it, but according to the
16 Transportation Department, there would be no access from
17 Fontaine Road to the mall.
18 Q Who did you talk with at the Transportation
19 Department who told you that?
20 A It was at the display that was at the mall,
21 I guess it must have been in March, maybe.
22 Q Did you raise the question of how you were
23 going to get access?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q And what were you told?
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1 A They said this isn't rock solid, but this
2 is the best plan we've come up with.
3 Q Did they explain how you could get access
4 to your business?
5 A They said Tibbetts Road or you could come
6 across the existing old crossing. They said there was
7 discussion about the alleyway behind there going up to
8 the new crossing, but as far as the guy knew at that time
9 that there wasn't anything going as far as the property
10 rights and that kind of stuff.
11 Q So if the old crossing is closed, your
12 customers can't get to your store?
13 A Oh, they could get there, yeah. If I poked
14 you in the eye, you could still see, but you couldn't see
15 as well.
16 MR. FARLEY: I don't have any further
17 questions.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
19 MR. HOWELL: No questions.
20 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
21
22
23
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HAMAN:
4 Q If the old crossing were closed, the trucks
5 that service your business, do they have to turn around
6 in the parking lot to get back out, am I correct in
7 saying that?
8 A They back into our parking lot.
9 Q So they basically back in, turn around to
10 get back out to the new crossing?
11 A Right. Right now they go down to the old
12 crossing.
13 Q Right. How big is that area for them to
14 turn around in?
15 A I guess our parking lot, well, it's big
16 enough for fire engine access because the City of
17 Ponderay made us do that, but it's maybe 130 feet deep,
18 130, you know, in that neighborhood.
19 Q Do you foresee any safety problems with
20 trucks having to turn around if the old crossing were
21 closed, trucks having to turn around and go back out?
22 A The safety issues that have been discussed,
23 you know, you get over there to 200 to go south and
24 you're either parked halfway on the railroad tracks to
25 get a semi-truck out if there's any cars there or they're
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1 trying to get out into a traffic pattern there that's
2 just not very convenient, not to mention they talked
3 about using that back alley, well, if Les Schwab has got
4 two trucks parked back there, you just can't use it, so
5 then you have to go through the mall parking lot and make
6 that right-hand turn and then back to the left and across
7 that crossing there.
8 MR. HAMAN: I have no further questions.
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Any questions
10 from the Commissioners?
11 Thank you, sir.
12 (The witness left the stand.)
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We're ready now
14 for John Arneson.
15
16 JOHN ARNESON,
17 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
18 sworn, testified as follows:
19
20 EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. HOWELL:
23 Q Sir, could you state your name and spell
24 your last name for the record?
25 A John Arneson, A-r-n-e-s-o-n.
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1 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
2 capacity?
3 A Three Rivers Specialties as manager and
4 Original Concepts Carpets as manager.
5 Q Are those properties located within the
6 commercial triangle?
7 A Yes, they are.
8 Q Would you please give us a business
9 address?
10 A 1001 Fontaine Drive for both. They're both
11 located in the same building.
12 Q And do you have a statement?
13 A Yes. The only thing, everyone has done a
14 very good job of stating the safety and whatnot, there is
15 three accesses in there, but it boils down to how good
16 the accesses are and especially on Tibbetts, you know,
17 safety in the wintertime. At the north end of Fontaine
18 as far as trucks, you know, it's a very unsafe access.
19 The only thing I can add is we're one of the newer
20 businesses, we started in April of last year, and since
21 this came up, I've been talking with the owners, we're
22 not associated that tightly yet with our location and if
23 the old crossing is closed and it looks like the 95 is
24 going to be rebuilt, we're looking at -- our access is so
25 badly cut off that we'll probably move our businesses and
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CSB REPORTING ARNESON
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1 we've been discussing that if that crossing is closed
2 because that will only leave the crossing there at the
3 mall and we have trucks that come and go and it's hard to
4 get across.
5 If you ever went out there and even tried
6 with a car, to make that left turn is just very difficult
7 and very unsafe. People fly across off from the highway,
8 so we are one of the businesses that will probably move
9 if that crossing is closed and 95 is under construction,
10 because we're looking ahead in the future and during that
11 time that will extremely hurt our business and that's
12 about the only comment I have at this point.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We're ready for
14 cross from Mr. Farley.
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. FARLEY:
19 Q Do you know who maintains Fontaine Drive?
20 A To my knowledge, the City of Ponderay.
21 Q And that's all the way to Bonner Mall Way?
22 A Yes, but not including Bonner Mall Way.
23 That I'm not sure if anybody does maintain that.
24 Q And it sounds like you've got winter
25 problems with snow and ice and the general climatic
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CSB REPORTING ARNESON (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 conditions that need to be cleaned up.
2 A On the streets?
3 Q Yeah.
4 A Yeah.
5 Q And the City of Ponderay is responsible for
6 that?
7 A There again, I assumed it was the City of
8 Ponderay. I did not examine the trucks to see who was
9 plowing it, but somebody plows it.
10 Q Have you expressed the concern that you
11 have with regard to access into your business with the
12 state or the city or the county on the Highway 95
13 redesign, whatever it may end up being?
14 A Up to this point there's nothing set solid
15 enough to discuss. Everything is a maybe, could be.
16 Like I say, the first step to our knowledge which we just
17 became aware of, to my knowledge, a month ago in a letter
18 we received, our owners received, is this is the first
19 news of access problems.
20 Q You've heard a lot of testimony here today
21 and one of those was the County Commissioner saying that
22 he was interested in economic development in the area,
23 the City of Ponderay is interested in economic
24 development in the area, do you really think they're
25 interested in making sure that your customers don't get
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 to your business so you have to move?
2 A No, I do not. I don't think they're trying
3 to discourage by any means, you know, access to our
4 businesses. I just don't know if everyone realizes that
5 anyone that has a business out there has routes they
6 follow. In the wintertime, we don't use Tibbetts because
7 of it being downhill. You see enough people slide and
8 get right out in the middle of 95 before they stop and
9 I've done it myself and luckily, nobody has come.
10 You've got a stoplight down there at 200
11 and 95, you've got a stoplight out at Kootenai Cutoff.
12 After they leave that light, everybody has enough room to
13 get up to 45 miles an hour, so when they're passing
14 Tibbetts, they're clipping right along and in a car
15 trying to get across there, especially 4-5:00 o'clock in
16 the afternoon, is hard to do, to say the least.
17 Q So if this area continues to develop
18 economically, which you want to have happen --
19 A That's what we moved there for, yeah.
20 Q -- and the businesses are going to come to
21 wherever the people are and provide their services, you
22 would expect to see some kind of traffic control lights
23 that make it possible for semis, trucks, other types of
24 vehicles to get in and out of the triangle area safely,
25 wouldn't you?
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1 A Uh-huh.
2 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
4 MR. HOWELL: No questions.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman?
6 MR. HAMAN: I have no questions.
7 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
8 the Commissioners?
9 Thank you, sir.
10 (The witness left the stand.)
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Next we'll call
12 Thomas Clark. Did we lose you? Thomas Clark.
13 Well, we'll move on to Sharon Bayless.
14
15 SHARON J. BAYLESS,
16 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
17 sworn, testified as follows:
18
19 EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MR. HOWELL:
22 Q Good evening, ma'am. I need your full name
23 and spell your last for the record.
24 A Sharon J. Bayless, B-a-y-l-e-s-s.
25 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
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CSB REPORTING BAYLESS
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1 capacity?
2 A I'm the owner of Lake RV.
3 Q And could I have a business address?
4 A 1200 Fontaine Drive.
5 Q And can you describe where your business is
6 located --
7 A Possibly.
8 Q -- or point to it?
9 A Where is the closed track? Is the closed
10 track the pink one on the left? Oh, down below?
11 MR. HUNT: The pink circle down below is
12 the crossing that's the subject of this hearing.
13 THE WITNESS: Then we're parallel to that
14 crossing right on the same side of the street just up
15 from it. We have five and-and-a-half acres.
16 Q BY MR. HOWELL: And give us your statement,
17 please.
18 A We feel that if that crossing is closed it
19 would impact our business tremendously and the reason is
20 we have a -- we were granted a sign by the City of
21 Ponderay to have it 50 feet in the air so people on 200
22 could see us, see our business. We cannot get any
23 access -- I mean, people that have to go up to the new
24 crossing, they would never find us.
25 We have a sign there and the railroad
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1 crossing is right there and that's how they get to us.
2 If they're on 200 and the railroad crossing is closed,
3 then there would be no way that they could get to us, to
4 try to find us. They would just continue to go on down
5 the road.
6 We have approximately 600 customers a week
7 that come into our business and a lot of them have very
8 large RV's, well, as high as 65 feet pulling a vehicle
9 behind it. That trying to get off of 200 on to Bonner
10 Mall Way and make a left turn down to however they're
11 going to try to get them to our place would be almost
12 impossible. Right now we have people coming in from 200
13 that come right straight into our -- we have a free dump
14 station there where they dump their RV's, they fill up
15 with water, they purchase supplies and they pull out and
16 they do not go back on that highway. They go down
17 Tibbetts to 95 and either go back to the left to catch
18 200 or go north on 95.
19 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: All right, we're
20 ready for cross-examination. Mr. Farley from Union
21 Pacific.
22
23
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. FARLEY:
4 Q Did I hear you right that you've got an
5 agreement with the City of Ponderay with regard to how
6 high your signs can be?
7 A Yes, that's correct.
8 Q Did anyone at the City ever tell you that
9 what we're referring to as the old crossing could be
10 closed?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you ever ask about that access into
13 your property?
14 A We never did. We never thought it was an
15 issue. We bought the raw land and built the building.
16 We just built a brand new 4,000 square foot and now we
17 have a 9,000 square foot building, we just completed that
18 a month ago, and we would like to put an RV park in the
19 same location and Sandpoint needs one of those
20 desperately.
21 Q Have you ever had any of your customers or
22 have you ever had experience of having a difficult time
23 seeing at that old crossing as you pull these long RV's
24 around that corner, that they ever have difficulty making
25 that turn?
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CSB REPORTING BAYLESS (X)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 A Nobody has ever said that they have a
2 difficult time. We also have a 40-foot bus that we have
3 taken across there many times. We actually live there,
4 so we use that crossing quite frequently. Actually, that
5 crossing is not, in my opinion not, an unsafe crossing,
6 except for the fact that it has been maintained poorly.
7 Q Can the RV's get access back on to
8 Highway 95 on Tibbetts Drive?
9 A If they don't put a light there and don't
10 put a right, right turn there, they can.
11 Q So if the state or the county or the city
12 doesn't mess it up and maybe even improves it, that would
13 be better?
14 A If they want to go on 95. If they want to
15 go on 200, then it's going to be very difficult, and a
16 lot of our customers are spontaneous customers, they're
17 driving through and if it's not easy access for them,
18 they're not going to stop.
19 Q I assume you have a large turn-around area
20 for these RV's?
21 A Yes, we do, we have a very large turn-out.
22 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
24
25
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HOWELL:
4 Q Ms. Bayless, how long has your business
5 been there?
6 A Since 1993.
7 Q And do you think it would improve internal
8 circulation if the alley were converted to a public
9 street?
10 A The alley up by Bonner Mall Way I don't
11 believe would help us that much at all, because how are
12 they going to get up to us? If they come off of 200 and
13 come down the alley and go to the light on 95 and take a
14 left and there's only a right, right turn on Tibbetts,
15 how are they going to get to us?
16 Q Well, assume for a moment that somebody
17 actually improves the alley and it's a public right of
18 way, could customers southbound on State Highway 200 take
19 a right at the new crossing, cross via the new alley and
20 then turn left on Fontaine Drive to get to your property?
21 A They certainly could if they do not shut
22 off Fontaine Drive to the north; however, that is a
23 tremendous turn right there. Now, if you've got a
24 65-foot vehicle, which a 40-foot, now they're making them
25 45 feet, if a 40-foot is pulling a car behind it tried to
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1 make that left turn, they're going to wipe out the stop
2 sign unless they improve that corner there.
3 Now, that is old 95, also and the roadbed
4 there, in the wintertime that's the only road that you
5 can drive on without a restriction because they don't
6 restrict that road, it's got a good bed.
7 Q So if they made the road improvements, that
8 would be one way to get to your business?
9 A That would be one way off of 200, except
10 for you would have to know I was already there, because
11 to see our sign and then see no access to it to how to
12 get there, you would not be able to get to us and you
13 wouldn't find us because of the sign restrictions.
14 We have a big sign now, a real high sign,
15 but the people that can see it, they can access it real
16 quickly, plus when you go out of there, when you got on
17 to 200 from Fontaine, you have, there is a side lane
18 entrance that you can drive and the RV's that pull out of
19 there that are going to head south, still south, they can
20 pull out there with no problem at all without holding up
21 traffic to the left of them.
22 MR. HOWELL: No further questions.
23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman, is
24 there any cross-examination?
25 MR. HAMAN: There might be.
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. HAMAN:
4 Q So you are anticipating the value of your
5 five plus acres would be substantially impaired by the
6 closing of the old crossing; is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 MR. HAMAN: I have no further questions.
9 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Questions from
10 the Commissioners?
11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just one.
12
13 EXAMINATION
14
15 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
16 Q I'm assuming since your business has been
17 there since '93 that this agreement with the City for the
18 sign has been since that time, also?
19 A Yes, that's correct.
20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you.
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you very
22 much for your testimony.
23 (The witness left the stand.)
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: We now call Steve
25 Klalt.
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1 AUDIENCE: I think he left.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Steve left?
3 Okay, at this point, then, we have exhausted the list. I
4 believe that the City had mentioned that James Hunt would
5 provide testimony, I believe that's the Mayor, so I think
6 what we'll do at this point before we get to the Mayor is
7 we will first ask if there are other people here tonight
8 who did not sign up who like an opportunity to testify in
9 the proceedings this evening.
10 Yes, sir, if you could come forward and be
11 sworn in and then we'll have you formally go on the
12 record.
13
14 DWIGHT SHEFFLER,
15 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
16 sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 EXAMINATION
19
20 BY MR. HOWELL:
21 Q Would you state your full name and spell
22 your last for the record, please?
23 A My name is Dwight Sheffler,
24 S-h-e-f-f-l-e-r.
25 Q And whom are you employed by and in what
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CSB REPORTING SHEFFLER
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Public
1 capacity?
2 A I am an owner of Sandpoint Furniture and
3 also about 4.8 acres behind or to the south of Sandpoint
4 Furniture.
5 Q Could you show us on either the photo or
6 the map where your property is located?
7 A Yes, sir. I believe that this is our store
8 here and this would be the motel here and this, we own
9 this acreage here back to the motel [indicating].
10 Q And, sir, I need a business address.
11 A The address of that would be 401 Bonner
12 Mall Way.
13 Q And do you have a statement?
14 A Our concern is that this traffic displaced
15 with the closing of that crossing would push the truck
16 traffic up to Bonner Mall Way. That's already a very
17 highly-traveled street now that connects 200 and 95.
18 There was a traffic count here a couple of years ago that
19 registered in excess of 10,000 vehicles a day traveling
20 east and west between 95 and 200. That at the present
21 time is a -- and I don't know, some of you look a little
22 bit surprised as we were also at that traffic count, but
23 that was the count, so like I said, we are concerned that
24 by displacing that traffic, that truck traffic, up to
25 Bonner Mall Way does a couple of things.
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1 First, there's a couple of right-hand
2 turns. Well, if you're going west, you come off of 200
3 and you take a right and then you take an immediate left
4 within less than probably 150 feet and it is a
5 privately-maintained road that because of the traffic
6 count and the constant grinding and turning there has
7 deteriorated and it's not determined at this point just
8 who is going to maintain that.
9 The other concern that we have is, of
10 course, the alley. We really haven't made a
11 determination just where we stand on that. Obviously, we
12 would be impacted if there was a new highway that was to
13 be developed down that alleyway. We do load from what
14 would be the south side of our building now and many
15 times we block, we have that alleyway completely blocked
16 for lengthy periods of time, so if that was a through
17 street, that would not be an option for us.
18 I guess my final comment would be that I'm
19 not sure what this document that has been referred to
20 many times this evening consists of. If it was just an
21 understanding or agreement, recorded document, I'm not
22 sure what it is because I've never seen it. Our reaction
23 or our thoughts to that document is this: There's been a
24 lot of things that have happened since 1987. To blindly
25 follow a document such as that I think strikes me as a
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1 little bit narrow-focused and a little odd in this day
2 and age when we're trying to move forward and provide
3 ease of access and the recognition of the development
4 that has happened in that area that it would even be a
5 consideration to decrease the access.
6 It would be like somebody getting up here
7 and I would welcome somebody making such a statement that
8 we now have too much access to this area, we need to
9 close this off, but that's basically what the Commission
10 must be saying if they are going to adhere to this
11 document, so I guess that's my position.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you for
13 your testimony. We're ready now for cross-examination.
14 Mr. Farley from Union Pacific.
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. FARLEY:
19 Q Are you suggesting that you would be
20 opposed to increased traffic near your business?
21 A We would be opposed to increased truck
22 traffic.
23 Q But cars, other vehicles, that would be all
24 right?
25 A Yeah. We are concerned about the
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1 displacement of large vehicles. Let's say it would be
2 gas tankers, large farm vehicles, those types of vehicles
3 trying to maneuver around our store in that very
4 tight-turning radius in those two 90-degree turns.
5 Q How long has your business been in this
6 location?
7 A We located there in 1993.
8 Q Have you lived in the area longer than
9 that?
10 A I was born and raised here in Sandpoint,
11 Idaho.
12 Q Why did you locate your business in this
13 area?
14 A This area is recognized as one of the
15 growing and more commercially viable areas of the greater
16 Sandpoint/Ponderay area and so it was a good location to
17 put a business. Also, as has been previously stated, the
18 City of Sandpoint has really a very limited amount of
19 commercial space to be developed and I say that from
20 experience having been a past mayor of Sandpoint, so
21 even -- in fact, at the time that we moved our business,
22 I was in fact the mayor of Sandpoint. It was a very
23 awkward situation, but one that had to be made because of
24 the lack of opportunity in Sandpoint.
25 Q So you anticipate that this growth is going
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1 to continue in that area?
2 A Absolutely. This area is going to continue
3 to develop, probably one of the key commercial economic
4 areas in this area.
5 Q Do you plan on developing your additional
6 property, I believe, located to the south of your
7 existing store?
8 A Yes, we are.
9 Q How many acres do you own back there?
10 A 4.8.
11 Q So you're going to need to increase access
12 to public roads for that development, aren't you?
13 A Yes, we will.
14 Q Who did the car count or the traffic count
15 that you referred to, 10,000 cars I believe you said per
16 day?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Who did that?
19 A I believe it was the Bonner Mall.
20 Q Do you know when that was done?
21 A A couple of years ago.
22 Q Were you aware as the mayor -- when were
23 you the mayor of Sandpoint?
24 A It's been about five years since I was the
25 mayor of Sandpoint.
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1 Q Before that, were you involved in any
2 community activities?
3 A I was a councilman before that. I was
4 involved with the City of Sandpoint for about
5 six-and-a-half years.
6 Q Were you aware of this agreement that Union
7 Pacific and Ponderay entered into to relocate the old
8 crossing to the new Bonner Mall?
9 A Not until early this year.
10 Q And that was the first you were advised
11 that the old crossing was supposed to be closed as soon
12 as certain conditions were met?
13 A Yes, sir, that's the first I was aware of
14 it.
15 Q Would you agree with the previous testimony
16 that by moving or opening the crossing at the Bonner Mall
17 Way that that has actually resulted in an increase in
18 economic development in the commercial triangle area?
19 A Absolutely.
20 Q And you believe that commercial
21 development, that economic development, will continue to
22 increase whether this old crossing is closed or not?
23 A I believe that it will continue to develop,
24 although this will be, maybe not to my business, but I
25 believe it will be a severe blow to some of those
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1 businesses that are south on Fontaine Drive. I'm also a
2 CPA. I've been in business all my life and location,
3 access is everything with a business and certainly, some
4 of these people have real concerns and I think we're all
5 aware that people being the way they are, the reason why
6 downtowns, Sandpoint being a good point, a good one to
7 point out, Spokane, downtown Coeur d'Alene, access,
8 parking, they won't drive 300 yards to get to a
9 business. They're spontaneous and they'll just keep
10 right on going.
11 Q So as a business owner, the more accesses
12 you can have the better?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q As a former mayor, you understand that
15 economic development requires developing access in and
16 out so that the economy can expand?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you anticipate that that's going to
19 occur here?
20 A I hope so.
21 Q If you have anything to say about it,
22 there's going to be good access?
23 A Yes, that's why I'm up here testifying.
24 MR. FARLEY: Thank you. No further
25 questions.
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1 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
2 MR. HOWELL: No questions.
3 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
4 MR. HAMAN: No questions.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Commissioners?
6
7 EXAMINATION
8
9 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
10 Q I guess maybe, how long has your business
11 been there?
12 A Since 1993.
13 Q 1993, okay. I guess I'll just ask this the
14 nicest way I can --
15 A Be nice.
16 Q -- who's responsible for planning the roads
17 in this area? Do you have a highway district? Is it the
18 city or the county? I mean, it looks like it's just kind
19 of haphazardly kind of been put up a bit at a time
20 without any real forethought into long-term planning or
21 access.
22 A Well, maybe in Sandpoint and this area we
23 have at times suffered from a lack of planning. It seems
24 like we've been dealing with the highway bypass for 50
25 years and traffic has always been an issue in my lifetime
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1 living here. It's kind of -- you know, development has
2 happened by force, almost. It's because of a lack of
3 access or opportunity in one area, it goes to another and
4 then you've got one business that locates and they root
5 and then you've got another and another and that is what
6 has happened in this area and, you know, perhaps if the
7 UP would have moved 12 years ago to immediately close
8 that crossing these businesses, especially down Fontaine
9 Drive, would have made different decisions and you would
10 not be facing the problem that we have today, but I think
11 you're correct when you say that there seems to be a lack
12 of clear planning, except for the fact that, say, the
13 City of Ponderay has created commercial zones, it's just
14 been by happenstance that things have spread and happened
15 the way that they have.
16 Q My impression, then, from reading the
17 original case file was that this new crossing was somehow
18 going to provide improved access and a line, actually
19 roads, but it looks like to me now that actually it's
20 like a snake, you cross over and you turn right and you
21 turn left and it's not straight --
22 A Well --
23 Q -- it's not easy if you're unfamiliar with
24 the area to negotiate this.
25 A It was stated earlier that this crossing
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1 was built primarily for the Bonner Mall development and
2 as the Bonner Mall developed, then we -- we are a good
3 case in point, the Sandpoint Furniture, my partners and I
4 in Sandpoint Furniture -- we located across the street as
5 did Les Schwab and a motel and McDonald's and then they
6 created a certain amount of traffic which all the
7 businesses fed on and then that spread another block back
8 and it's gone back from there and so, first of all, it
9 probably eased access, but now it is causing
10 complications.
11 Q So are these city streets or county roads
12 or, like I say, who --
13 A To be determined.
14 Q So basically -- and then we don't know what
15 the state is going to do with 95, so you've just got a
16 constant state of uncertainty?
17 A Last year in front of our building we put
18 up with the fact that the City of Ponderay and Bonner
19 Mall ownership are contesting who is to maintain Bonner
20 Mall Way and so our road was not plowed one time, only
21 through the grace of God were we able to get through
22 there and somebody didn't get hurt. That's the reason
23 why it's in the state of disrepair today. It's still
24 contested as to who is legally responsible to maintain
25 that.
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1 Q And I just want to say that that was one of
2 the Commission's big concerns in 1987 in Order 21357 when
3 it says, you know, this should be -- a public entity
4 should own this roadway and be responsible for it, so
5 that's still a concern today?
6 A It's still a concern. It would be my own
7 personal opinion, given the amount of traffic that's on
8 that road and being that it's obvious that it's being
9 used as a east-west shortcut, if you want to call it
10 that, between 200 and 95, that it would be a public road,
11 a State of Idaho maintained road or a City of Ponderay
12 road, although the City of Ponderay has some concerns
13 because of the condition of the road whether they want to
14 take it on and so there's issues there that, like I say,
15 have yet to be determined and just who's going to take
16 responsibility.
17 Q Finally, on the traffic count you
18 mentioned, do you know over what period of time it was
19 taken and what time of year?
20 A Well, actually, Richard, are you still
21 here? Richard might be able to supply you some of that
22 information.
23 Q Well, Richard is not up here and you are.
24 A I can't, no.
25 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay, thank you.
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1 Thank you for your patience.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you very
3 much.
4 (The witness left the stand.)
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Are there others
6 from the general public who have not signed up and wish
7 to have an opportunity to testify?
8 If not, at this point, Mayor Hunt, what I
9 would like to just inform you of is that we do plan to
10 allow Union Pacific and the City to have some closing
11 statements, would you rather have your comments made then
12 or would you at this time like to come forward and
13 testify?
14 MR. HUNT: I would think at this time
15 because there are some questions that have been raised
16 that I might be able to answer.
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Why don't you
18 come forward, then, and be sworn in and we'll get your
19 name officially on the record.
20 MR. FARLEY: Commissioner?
21 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Yes.
22 MR. FARLEY: I reserved the right to call
23 someone else, if possible, and I would like to just ask a
24 question of Lee Wilson of the Idaho Transportation
25 Department if that's all right. It will be fairly short,
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1 but I wanted to make sure that you could coordinate that.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Is Mr. Wilson
3 here?
4 MR. FARLEY: Yes, he is.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I think we can
6 work that in.
7
8 JAMES E. HUNT,
9 appearing as a public witness, having been first duly
10 sworn, testified as follows:
11
12 THE WITNESS: For the record, my name is
13 James E. Hunt, H-u-n-t, Mayor of Ponderay, Post Office
14 Box 500, Ponderay, Idaho. Any other preliminary
15 questions that you want done?
16 For the Commission's edification, this
17 particular plat is a portion of a topographical survey we
18 had made as part of our storm water management. This is
19 just the lower area which encompasses the triangle that
20 we are talking about. The yellow on the left or the west
21 is Highway 95. The yellow on the right or on the east is
22 Highway 200. The blue represents the current access
23 either by city ownership or by use.
24 The red circles are the two railroad
25 crossings that are being discussed. The upper one is the
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1 new crossing that goes into Bonner Mall. The southerly
2 one is the old crossing that the Railroad seeks to
3 close. Today this is Bonner Mall Way. This is the jog
4 that goes into the new crossing. This is referred to as
5 Fontaine Drive and this is Tibbetts Way, so as we go out
6 tonight, you can access the triangle from 200, you can
7 access the triangle from Triangle Drive that's been
8 referred to coming into Bonner Mall Way, then down
9 Fontaine and Tibbetts from the highway. Of course, if
10 the Commission were to close this, then we have lost one
11 access.
12 The Idaho Transportation Department is
13 working on an upgrade of 95 from the Y north all the way
14 through and, Scott, if I misstate something on what the
15 highway is doing, please correct me. The property that
16 this Commission alluded to in 1987 where they said it
17 should be given to a public entity is this right here.
18 That was vacated and deeded to the Bonner Mall people
19 when the mall was built by Bonner County. The mall now
20 owns the west half of that, McDonald's owns the east
21 half. It has been maintained as opened ever since then.
22 The new program that the state is fostering
23 would close this period because they propose a stoplight
24 at this intersection and this, of course, would be so
25 close to the intersection there would be a traffic hazard
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1 that they could not tolerate, so this road construction,
2 which is, if you can believe what the paper says,
3 scheduled for 2001 or two years from now, will result in
4 the closure of this portion of Fontaine Drive eliminating
5 any access from this way to the triangle.
6 Part of their proposal is to create a new
7 right-hand access to Fontaine off of Highway 95, so there
8 would be one access in to Fontaine going south. On
9 Tibbetts, there would be a right hand in and a right hand
10 out. The ITD people contemplate a public hearing later
11 this summer to try to finalize what they are now
12 planning, so if this is closed, there will be no way to
13 get to the triangle from the new crossing. There would
14 be one way in on Tibbetts, one way out on Tibbetts right
15 and one way in on a proposed access south of the closed
16 road here.
17 The thought is this would be two lanes
18 going north, two lanes going south. Coming south there
19 would be access coming in, but no left turn going south,
20 so if after the public hearings the ITD plan is
21 stabilized -- and with ITD's permission, I would leave a
22 copy of the tentative plan with the Commission so you can
23 see what the program is for this area and this area.
24 Now, Mrs. Smith inquired about maintenance
25 and ownership up here. When Bonner Mall started their
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1 construction, they wanted the City to take title to this
2 road. The City said we will take title, but the
3 developers of the mall said we will maintain that road
4 and that is the controversy that Mr. Sheffler refers to.
5 This is in fact owned by the City, but we are arguing
6 whether the old agreement to maintain it is viable or the
7 City will eventually have to maintain it, so our position
8 is that in light of the ITD development in the next two
9 years, this crossing has to stay open or this triangle is
10 going to be for all purposes landlocked.
11 You can get in here, you can get in here,
12 you can get out only here, so you've got two ways in and
13 one way out for all these businesses located all the way
14 through here, through here and currently over here.
15 That's where the Lake RV development is is in here, so
16 our position is it's reasonably necessary to keep that
17 open and that's what we would ask be done.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mayor Hunt,
19 before we move to cross-examination, I'd like to ask you
20 if it would be possible for you to get us a reduced sized
21 copy of that map, color coded the same way, so that when
22 we do review the written transcript, it will have more
23 meaning for us when we begin our deliberations, would
24 that be possible for the City to provide?
25 THE WITNESS: You want a more reduced map
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1 than this one?
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Yes, if we
3 could. That way it could be included with the transcript
4 for filing and also for further review.
5 THE WITNESS: This is from the engineers.
6 Do we have a smaller one, Nancy?
7 AUDIENCE: We could get one.
8 MR. HUNT: I would certainly be happy to do
9 so.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: And if you could
11 color code it the same.
12 MR. HUNT: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you very
14 much.
15 We're now ready for cross-examination.
16 Mr. Farley from Union Pacific.
17
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19
20 BY MR. FARLEY:
21 Q Mayor, when did you first become aware of
22 the Bonner Mall development and the need for the new
23 Bonner Mall crossing?
24 A In 19- late '86 or early '87, I was engaged
25 by the City of Ponderay in connection with the Railroad's
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1 obstruction of the southern crossing and I was the one
2 that pursued the matter along with yourself through the
3 Commission in 1987.
4 Q So you weren't aware at all about the
5 negotiations between Union Pacific and the City of
6 Ponderay with regard to the closure of the old crossing
7 and the installation of the new one?
8 A No, sir, that predated me.
9 Q But in your investigation, did you come to
10 find out that the City had in fact agreed to close the
11 old crossing and put in a new one?
12 A There is correspondence to that effect,
13 yes.
14 Q Didn't the City ratify that agreement?
15 Although there was some question with regard to how it
16 was initially entered into, there was an action, an
17 official action, by the City to ratify that agreement,
18 was there not?
19 A It was repudiated after I was engaged and
20 I'm not aware of any other ramification. As a matter of
21 fact, in 1987 the Railroad withdrew the permit to make
22 the crossing and it was never reinstated.
23 Q Could you repeat that again?
24 A In 1987 the Union Pacific rescinded the
25 crossing permit and has never regranted a permit for the
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1 City to maintain that crossing.
2 Q So in your opinion, that Bonner Mall
3 crossing really shouldn't be there?
4 A I said we don't have a permit. There might
5 be an estoppel arising from that.
6 Q In your opinion, is there an estoppel?
7 A I would hesitate to answer that because I
8 have been out of the practice for 10 years.
9 Q But you're aware that the Bonner Mall
10 people did in fact pay the $150,000 needed to signalize
11 the crossing?
12 A I understand they did, sir.
13 Q Is it your testimony that in your
14 investigation Ponderay City never intended to close that
15 old crossing?
16 A From the time I was associated with the
17 City, that is correct. Before that, I cannot say.
18 Q Even though the City filed the action to
19 have it closed initially?
20 A I wasn't aware that the City had filed to
21 close it. The railroad just blocked it and that's what
22 precipitated the uprising from the Sandpoint supermarket.
23 Q I think you'll find that in fact the City
24 did file the petition to close that crossing initially,
25 but you're telling me they never intended to close the
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1 crossing at all?
2 A I can't answer what they intended before my
3 association.
4 Q So let me say subsequent to the
5 Commission's Order with regard to closure of the crossing
6 and the three conditions involved in that, which you've
7 been aware of since 1987, what has the City done with
8 regard to access within the commercial triangle to make
9 sure that the businesses that moved into that area would
10 in fact have sufficient access if that old crossing was
11 closed which you were aware the Commission had ordered?
12 A The answer is nothing.
13 Q Do you have any knowledge of any plans of
14 what the City is going to do with regard to the
15 development in that area so that everyone has access?
16 A There are no plans at this time to my
17 knowledge.
18 Q Who would make those plans?
19 A It would be the City Council.
20 Q If that crossing is closed, will the City
21 Council meet to discuss access for these businesses?
22 A They meet on any subject that comes before
23 them, yes.
24 Q And that would be a significant subject
25 with regard to these businesses?
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1 A It certainly would.
2 Q In your opinion, opening the new crossing
3 improved access to businesses in that triangle, didn't
4 it?
5 A Certainly.
6 Q And encouraged people to relocate their
7 businesses there?
8 A It certainly would have.
9 Q And doesn't the City have the
10 responsibility to make sure that they have reasonable
11 public access?
12 A I would have to say yes.
13 Q Are you aware of who, if anyone, maintains
14 the end of Fontaine Drive there that you've scribbled on?
15 A The City of Ponderay has maintained and
16 plowed that.
17 Q And the same is true of Bonner Mall Way?
18 You say there's a dispute there?
19 A No, sir. Bonner Mall Way has been
20 maintained by Bonner Mall ownership all these years.
21 Q Who installed the stop signs and the street
22 signs along those roads?
23 A Bonner Mall Way installed them. The City
24 requested it because that was part of their maintenance,
25 but they have installed them. As a matter of fact,
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1 there's a stop sign right here [indicating] that had been
2 plowed out and we insisted they put it up and they did
3 reinstall it.
4 Q What about the private alley, if you go due
5 west from the new Bonner Mall crossing, who maintains
6 that?
7 A It would have to be the property owners
8 that own it because we have nothing to do with that.
9 Q And the stop sign that's there would have
10 been put up by whom?
11 A They would have put that up.
12 Q If the old crossing is closed by the order
13 of the Commission, what could the City do to improve
14 access for businesses in that triangle?
15 A A great deal would depend upon what
16 determination ITD makes relative to the Highway 95
17 improvement program. There's no way that we can get
18 across the railroad from 200 all the way through. There
19 is another crossing clear up here at Kootenai Cutoff, so
20 there are three crossings on the railroad right of way,
21 so we are limited to 95 primarily because there's no
22 railroad involved.
23 Q What about the access off the Kootenai
24 Cutoff that goes down west of the railroad tracks,
25 couldn't you continue that road down on the western side
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1 of the railroad tracks and provide access all the way
2 along there?
3 A A road that goes west along the tracks?
4 Q You've got the blue road going north,
5 doesn't that go up to the Kootenai Cutoff?
6 A This goes up to Triangle Drive. Triangle
7 Drive then goes up to Kootenai Cutoff.
8 Q Okay, it jogs over to the east and then it
9 goes on up. Couldn't you bring that road on down for the
10 rest of the triangle like you have done in the northern
11 end?
12 A I suppose it's entirely possible, anything
13 is possible.
14 Q And you have the authority to acquire that
15 property if you needed to?
16 A Assuming we have condemnation rights, if
17 that's what you're referring to.
18 Q Has the City undertaken any kind of a study
19 to determine whether or not the old crossing is safe for,
20 what you've heard today, school buses, bulk gasoline
21 trucks, RV trucks, the number of cars that are going
22 across it, semis, has the City taken any steps to have a
23 safety study done on that crossing?
24 A No, we have taken no count. We have relied
25 upon the ITD count that they have taken since the last
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1 scheduled hearing in February.
2 Q And they're the experts on railroad
3 crossings for the State of Idaho?
4 A I would say yes, they are the experts.
5 Q And you'd defer to them?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. FARLEY: No further questions.
8 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. HOWELL:
13 Q Mayor Hunt, in your discussion of the ITD
14 proposed improvements to U.S. Highway 95, they are in
15 fact just proposals, are they not?
16 A At this point, yes.
17 Q And in fact, ITD hasn't even had the public
18 scoping hearings?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And so no final action or decision has been
21 made as far as ingress or egress to the commercial
22 triangle?
23 A Not to my knowledge, unless they have done
24 something that has not been taken up with us.
25 Q You've probably heard discussion or me
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1 asking questions about improving the private alley,
2 wouldn't that also then, sir, be another possibility of
3 an ingress/egress into the commercial triangle if the
4 alley were turned into a public street and that street
5 were in turn connected to U.S. 95?
6 A It certainly would be.
7 Q If the old crossing were to be maintained,
8 isn't it in the City's best interest to make that
9 crossing as safe as possible?
10 A Safety is always a concern of the Council
11 and the Mayor, absolutely.
12 Q And it would be -- would it be the City's
13 position that that crossing if retained should be
14 signalized?
15 A I am not a railroad expert. Signalization,
16 of course, makes anything safer, so if it's a question of
17 what would make it safer, yes, signalization would make
18 it safer.
19 Q And I don't know if you can answer this
20 question, but if signalization would make it safer and
21 it's a city roadway, would the City be willing to assist
22 in the signalization of that crossing?
23 A It would depend upon the extent of the
24 participation. We're a small town, we don't have much
25 money, and we do the best with what we have.
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1 MR. HOWELL: No further questions.
2 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
3 MR. HAMAN: No questions.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Commissioners?
5
6 EXAMINATION
7
8 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
9 Q Mayor, do you have a city planning and
10 zoning committee?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And would a new business located in that
13 area, would they have to get a permit either from the
14 planning and zoning or from the City Council in order to
15 locate a business in there?
16 A They would have to deal with both.
17 Q With both?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And do you think that since 1987 when a new
20 business petitioned to locate in that area that they
21 should have been aware of this agreement that the
22 Railroad and the City had made in 1987, do you feel like
23 the City had an obligation or the planning and zoning
24 committee had an obligation to tell those people?
25 A 20-20 hindsight, probably they should have,
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1 but it was one of those things, out of sight, out of
2 mind. People weren't even thinking about that thing
3 because it had been so many years and we did know that
4 neither the Commission nor ITD or the City could force
5 somebody to give this property if they didn't wish to, so
6 I think the City was probably remiss, but they were still
7 waiting for a compliance with this Commission's Order of
8 1987.
9 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Commissioner
11 Smith.
12 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just a couple.
13
14 EXAMINATION
15
16 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
17 Q I guess it did occur to me that perhaps
18 since the contract between the City and the Railroad had
19 been recorded that maybe people would have had better
20 notice, maybe not. Could you give me some idea of the
21 distance between the new crossing and the old crossing on
22 the map?
23 A One-half mile.
24 Q One-half mile, so if you were to extend a
25 roadway on the west side, it would be a half a mile of
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1 road, about?
2 A Yes. From this point to this point on a
3 one inch equals 100 feet is just half a mile and so there
4 would be half a mile of condemnation and road building
5 along there.
6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you very much,
7 Mr. Mayor.
8
9 EXAMINATION
10
11 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:
12 Q Mr. Mayor, to follow up on that, if the
13 option were to extend the road there and you had to go
14 through condemnation proceedings, what do you think that
15 might cost the City in terms of payment to property
16 owners?
17 A The only way that thing could be done would
18 be through an LID. The City doesn't have any money or
19 doesn't have enough money to accomplish that job short of
20 an LID and that, of course, would then depend upon the
21 bond rate that the LID would generate.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Okay, thank you.
23 (The witness left the stand.)
24 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: At this point I
25 believe we are ready for closing comments. Oh, I'm
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1 sorry, you had Mr. Wilson. I guess I was really trying
2 to get out of here.
3 MR. FARLEY: I'll keep it short.
4 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Take as much time
5 as you need.
6 MR. FARLEY: Union Pacific would like to
7 call Mr. Wilson forward.
8
9 E. LEE WILSON,
10 produced as a witness at the instance of the Union
11 Pacific Railroad, having been first duly sworn, was
12 examined and testified as follows:
13
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. FARLEY:
17 Q Mr. Wilson, will you please state your full
18 name and spell your last name for us?
19 A E. Lee Wilson, W-i-l-s-o-n.
20 Q And what's your address, Mr. Wilson?
21 A 2121 Madison Avenue, Boise, Idaho.
22 Q By whom are you employed?
23 A Idaho Transportation Department.
24 Q And what's your position with the Idaho
25 Transportation Department?
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1 A Rail highway safety specialist.
2 Q How long have you been involved in that
3 position?
4 A I've been in rail highway safety since --
5 I've got to think -- '74, moved in in May of '74.
6 Q So 25 years?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You've reviewed many crossings in that
9 time?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Made determinations about which were safe
12 and which were unsafe?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Made recommendations to whoever you make
15 recommendations to with regard to which crossings need
16 signalizing, which ones should to be changed?
17 A Correct.
18 Q How long have you been involved in what
19 we've been referring to here as the old crossing?
20 A Since the inception of the Bonner Mall. It
21 would have been started in --
22 COMMISSIONER SMITH: '86?
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, before that. It was
24 started in the late '70s.
25 Q BY MR. FARLEY: So you've watched as the
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1 new Bonner Mall was constructed?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And went through whatever process you put
4 it through to make a decision concerning the
5 signalization of the new Bonner Mall?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And was that with the understanding as far
8 as you were concerned that the old crossing would in fact
9 be closed?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Obviously, the old crossing hasn't been
12 closed, what's your opinion with regard to the condition
13 of that crossing with regard to what you've heard
14 testified here today of who's using it, how much traffic,
15 the types of traffic that's crossing that old crossing?
16 A There was a traffic count made by the
17 District 1 traffic section, which is out of Coeur
18 d'Alene, on March 5th of '99. In 1985, the traffic count
19 was 60; in 1999, May 5th, the traffic count on the old
20 crossing was 182 trips a day, so it essentially tripled.
21 At the same time the rail traffic also tripled in there.
22 It went from 7 to 21.
23 On the new crossing, the traffic dropped
24 from 1,100 cars a day in 1985 to 635 vehicles a day in
25 1999 and that was also taken on May 5th of '99.
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1 Q With regard to the crossing itself, do you
2 see any problems with this crossing as far as sight
3 distances and other things?
4 A Yes. A vehicle which I would class as
5 southbound on Fontaine Drive, I guess is what it's
6 called, approaching the crossing can't even see a train
7 approaching behind them out of their mirror. The mirrors
8 don't set properly to see a training coming. You have to
9 make a definite effort to see a train approaching from
10 behind you.
11 Another problem with the crossing that I
12 observed out there was I did sit there and see large
13 trucks use it, they use both lanes of road crossing the
14 crossing. Essentially, the road is closed when a truck
15 goes over the crossing. Both of those problems need to
16 be solved. One possible solution would be to straighten
17 Fontaine Drive out and bring it straight across the
18 tracks, which is going to be adverse to the Railroad's
19 operations because it's going to put the crossing right
20 in the middle of their rail yard. I'm sure the Railroad
21 would oppose that to the death because it would just kill
22 their operation.
23 The other alternative would be to signalize
24 and gate it so it would have to have gates on it. That
25 still isn't going to solve the problem when the trucks
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1 turn into it and I'm not sure how to solve that other
2 than relocate the crossing and the relocation is
3 essentially out because of the rail yard.
4 Q Do you have an opinion or a best estimate
5 based on your experience with regard to how much it would
6 cost to attempt to resolve the problems with the
7 approaches, the crossing itself, lights and gates and the
8 necessary signalization of that track taking into
9 consideration that there are two tracks there?
10 A With the two tracks there, the
11 signalization alone is going to cost a quarter of a
12 million dollars. You've still got the approach problems
13 that are unsolved. With that, I do not have any idea
14 what that would cost.
15 Q But it would be more?
16 A Yeah, the cost would exceed a quarter of a
17 million dollars probably by quite a ways.
18 Q And since this is an existing crossing,
19 you're probably not going to be able to get federal funds
20 for that, are you?
21 A Right now it does not qualify for federal
22 aid. It has to compete with other crossings in the state
23 and it doesn't even come close to ranking high.
24 Unfortunately, the accidents have a great weight on it
25 and I'm proud to say that there's only been one at this
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1 crossing, so it just doesn't rank high enough to qualify
2 for federal aid, but the potential is still there for an
3 accident, though.
4 Q That ranking would change with one
5 accident?
6 A If there was another accident there, that
7 would change the ranking considerably. I did some what
8 ifs and cranked in an extra accident and it still
9 wouldn't qualify for federal aid because of the low
10 traffic volumes.
11 Q In your review of other crossings when
12 you're making a determination about whether a crossing
13 should go in or come out and you're looking at general
14 access for businesses, how many accesses should a
15 business have?
16 A You have to provide one access.
17 Q And that's necessary?
18 A That's necessary, they've got to have one.
19 Q More than one --
20 A Is probably better according to the
21 businesses. I'm not a businessman, so I can't answer
22 that truthfully. I don't know. I've never been in
23 business for myself other than government. I'm just
24 going on what I've heard that the more access, the
25 happier they are. You get a corner gas station, they
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1 want an approach on each street.
2 Q And they're upset when you close any of
3 them?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When you're reviewing safety at crossings,
6 how do you factor in the types of vehicles that are
7 crossing that in determining the safety of the crossing?
8 A Truck counts are based on a percentage. In
9 this particular case, the percentage was high, so the
10 truck counts would have had a little more weight than
11 cars.
12 Q What about the types of trucks, if they're
13 carrying bulk fuel?
14 A That is done with the field review itself,
15 if they're carrying hazardous materials of any type,
16 which includes fuels, fertilizers, any hazardous
17 materials.
18 Q Has the City of Ponderay ever approached
19 you or anyone that you're aware of to find out how safe
20 or dangerous this crossing is and get your opinion with
21 regard to the safety to the general public if they
22 continue to use it?
23 A There's been no field review requested at
24 this crossing. I have looked at it personally several
25 times, but nothing with a full field review team which
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1 consists of railroad, city, police, fire department,
2 schools, it's quite involved. Federal highways are even
3 invited. That's in case we have enough money and it
4 ranks high enough to use it.
5 Q Do you have an opinion with regard to
6 whether you think this crossing should be closed or not?
7 A Safety-wise, I don't know how to solve the
8 problem other than closure.
9 MR. FARLEY: Thank you. No further
10 questions.
11 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Howell.
12
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14
15 BY MR. HOWELL:
16 Q Mr. Wilson, we've talked what seems now at
17 length tonight about access points, as part of the U.S.
18 95 highway improvement project, would funding be
19 available or, if you know, would funding be available to
20 improve access to the commercial triangle?
21 A I would have to defer that to Scott Stokes,
22 the district engineer. I know that we have to provide
23 access, but whether funding is available, you'd have to
24 check with him.
25 Q All right, setting aside the question of
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Union Pacific
1 funding for a moment, we've talked at length tonight,
2 also, about changing the alley to a public street and
3 then punching that on through to 95, would that in your
4 opinion improve the internal circulation and add another
5 access point?
6 A That would give you another access point.
7 I don't know what's going on on 95 in that area. If 95
8 remained as is where it's two ways so you can get north
9 and south on 95, yes, I'd say that it would improve it
10 considerably.
11 MR. HOWELL: No further questions.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Haman.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. HAMAN:
17 Q You stated that property needs one access;
18 correct?
19 A You have to provide them one access, safe
20 access.
21 Q Okay; so it's fair to say, then, reasonable
22 access must be provided?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And that would include -- access would
25 include entrance and exiting?
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Union Pacific
1 A Correct.
2 Q In a safe and reasonable manner?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 MR. HAMAN: I have no more questions.
5 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
6 Mr. Wilson. Oh, excuse me, I'm sorry, I've forgotten the
7 Commissioners.
8 Any questions from the Commission.
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Yes.
10
11 EXAMINATION
12
13 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:
14 Q Mr. Wilson, on your traffic counts which I
15 believe also appeared in your written comments, were
16 those done in March or in May?
17 A March, third month.
18 Q So they were done in March on the 5th?
19 A Yes. 3/5, that's what it says on the
20 report.
21 Q Which was a Friday and did you just do it
22 one day?
23 A It was done -- here's one on the -- let me
24 read the dates, I'll just read them to you. 3/5 was one
25 count; 3/5 is another count; 3/5 is another one; another
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CSB REPORTING WILSON (Com)
Wilder, Idaho 83676 Union Pacific
1 one on 3/5; that's the summary on 3/5. Here's the
2 turning moves on 3/5 and then here's one on 3/6, 3/6. It
3 looks like it was done on two different days.
4 Q So both crossings were counted --
5 A Both crossings --
6 Q -- on Friday and Saturday?
7 A Yes, at 15-minute intervals.
8 Q And was that done because of this
9 proceeding or for some other purpose?
10 A For this proceeding. It was requested at
11 the -- help me out, Don.
12 MR. HOWELL: February 5th settlement
13 conference.
14 Q BY COMMISSIONER SMITH: So it was part of
15 the follow-up from that meeting?
16 A Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay, thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I believe
19 Commissioner Hansen had a question.
20
21 EXAMINATION
22
23 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:
24 Q Mr. Wilson, my question would be how many
25 crossings would qualify or be implemented each year by
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Union Pacific
1 the state that does not qualify for federal funding?
2 A How many could be?
3 Q Well, how much money is there to fund
4 projects, crossing projects, that do not qualify for
5 federal funding?
6 A We get $250,000 a year to match federal aid
7 or fund in whole crossing projects.
8 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: You answered my
9 second question.
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Less than one.
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Mr. Wilson, thank
13 you much, appreciate your comments. We're now ready for
14 closing statements from Union Pacific and the City of
15 Ponderay and we'll start with Union Pacific.
16 MR. FARLEY: Commissioners, just let me
17 start by thanking you for listening to our repeated
18 efforts to get this crossing closed and, once again,
19 we've gone late into the evening and we've worn out a
20 couple of Commissions along the way and I know that there
21 have been comments here made about the length of time
22 that it's taken and I believe you've taken the brunt of
23 those comments, and in some ways, it's a funny thing and
24 yet, I too, I want to apologize because Union Pacific
25 made a serious mistake and if we hadn't made that
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Wilder, Idaho 83676 Union Pacific
1 mistake, we wouldn't be here today, we wouldn't be
2 discussing this old crossing, we wouldn't be as concerned
3 as we are about the safety of the general public.
4 We had an agreement, we acted in good
5 faith. We thought that everyone else was acting in good
6 faith and had we acted as we should have merely by the
7 book and not constructed the new crossing, not opened the
8 new crossing without closing the crossing, which we
9 had included in our agreement, we wouldn't be here today,
10 so let me apologize to you that we didn't follow that
11 procedure, because this was never intended to be two open
12 crossings and us trying to close one. This was a
13 relocation of a bad crossing, we saw it was a bad
14 crossing, we were willing to move it.
15 The City apparently agreed with that idea
16 and in their efforts to undertake economic development in
17 this particular area, they agreed to open that crossing
18 and it was a wise decision on their part because it has
19 in fact resulted in economic development in this
20 triangular area which is what the community wanted, it's
21 what the county wants, it's what the state wants. Now
22 you've got what you wanted, except we've still got a very
23 dangerous crossing.
24 There was a tough third condition on
25 closing that crossing that Union Pacific could not comply
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1 with. We could put in the lights and gates, we could
2 even put some pressure on the state to put in the turn
3 bays on Highway 200, but we couldn't force another
4 private party to convey an interest in their own property
5 to the City, the county or the state for access.
6 Apparently, the City was aware of that.
7 Because of that one condition, for the last
8 14 years, apparently the City has taken no action at all
9 to provide any kind of access in the commercial triangle
10 while they were taking economic advantage of the
11 taxpayers that were moving in there. They took no action
12 because they knew that Bonner Mall not only wouldn't
13 convey that piece of property, but they had already
14 conveyed it to another party, so they couldn't do it.
15 As far as I can tell, the only party that
16 appeared here seriously taking into consideration that
17 this crossing is safe is the City of Ponderay and yet,
18 they admit freely that they are not the experts in that
19 area. They would defer to the Idaho Transportation
20 Department and you've heard that testimony here.
21 Now, what is reasonable access, reasonably
22 necessary? If you drive up and down Highway 95,
23 Highway 200, you will see many, many businesses that have
24 one access. Some are fortunate enough to have two.
25 These parties have a sincere interest in having as many
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1 open accesses as they can get and I don't fault them for
2 that, because the more access, the easier it is for your
3 customers to get there and they'll purchase what they
4 can, but we're all creatures of habit.
5 We just moved into a new office building.
6 When I walk in to get a drink of water, I still turn to
7 the left instead of to the right. Now, I expect that's
8 going to continue in my mind for approximately 30 days.
9 After the 30-day period, I will be accustomed to turning
10 to the right instead of the left or whichever way it is
11 now. I'm not sure, I'm only 15 days into it. The
12 traveling public does the same thing.
13 Oh, they may be thinking I've got to go
14 down and get some feed so I'll go down and use the old
15 crossing. They'll get there and they'll say, oh, yeah,
16 that was a mistake, now I have to go all the way around
17 and back in and they'll do that once or twice and before
18 long, they'll find the shortest route and they'll get
19 there and they'll get back out. Other industries do it,
20 other businesses do it, they're going to do it, too.
21 It's a 30-day problem.
22 Now, if there's internal problems in that
23 commercial area, I can't believe that the county and the
24 City are just going to say, yeah, all you people, sorry
25 about that, move out, they're not going to do that, but I
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1 think we have to remove their incentive for doing nothing
2 and that incentive for doing nothing is keeping that old
3 crossing open.
4 Order that it be closed, it will be safer
5 for the public, it is in their best interests, it is not
6 reasonably necessary and in fact, the sad thing about
7 this whole process is that the Commission, the Idaho
8 Department of Transportation, the Railroad never had an
9 opportunity to even debate whether there should be two
10 crossings there. The whole object was to only have one
11 access and that one access has accomplished what the City
12 wants.
13 Thank you for your time and, please, can we
14 close this crossing in the best interests of the public.
15 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
16 Mr. Farley. We're ready now for the City of Ponderay.
17 Mr. Haman.
18 MR. HAMAN: I believe Mayor Hunt's
19 statement adequately presented the City's position and
20 you have our written comments, so I'm not going to take
21 much time. I just want to point out a few things and as
22 the Commission has been made aware of time and again
23 through tonight, the third condition of the Commission's
24 Order was to ensure public access over that private road
25 or that private area. That has yet to be satisfied.
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1 It is no fault of any particular party.
2 It's certainly no fault of the City. To presume that the
3 City was aware that the private landowner would not
4 convey the property is rather preposterous, I would say.
5 There's no fault that that has not been conveyed, it has
6 yet to be conveyed and until that is done, the third
7 condition of this Commission's Order has not been
8 satisfied and this proceeding is not right until that
9 condition is satisfied. How it's going to be satisfied,
10 we don't know at this point, but until it is satisfied,
11 this Commission should not order the closing of what is
12 referred to as the old crossing.
13 It's my understanding the Idaho
14 Transportation Department is going to hold public
15 hearings to explore access to alternative routes and they
16 have yet to hold their hearings and until they hold their
17 hearings, I again think that any order by this Commission
18 should be put off and let the public, those public
19 hearings proceed and see what the ITD can do, but
20 nevertheless, in light of all that, there have been some
21 substantial and significant changes to this area since
22 the mid '80s.
23 New businesses have come in. These
24 businesses will be substantially impacted by the closure
25 of that lower old crossing. With these changes and these
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1 new businesses, the new crossing is no longer safe if
2 that is the only access; in other words, you take away
3 the access, all that traffic is going to be funneled into
4 one area. That is going to increase traffic, it's going
5 to increase accidents.
6 I think the position, as I stated, is well
7 summarized in our written comments and I will defer to
8 that and to Mayor Hunt's testimony, and that's what we
9 have to say at this point, but I believe that for now
10 until the Commission is satisfied and until the ITD has
11 its public hearings the old crossing has to stay open.
12 Thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Thank you,
14 Mr. Haman. I want to thank everyone tonight for their
15 concern --
16 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Mr. Chairman?
17 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: -- their patience
18 and participation and before we close up the proceedings,
19 I'll yield to Commissioner Smith.
20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: If you wouldn't mind,
21 I just have one question for Mr. Haman.
22 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Certainly.
23 COMMISSIONER SMITH: If I understand your
24 argument correctly, Mr. Haman, it's that since the third
25 condition, which is the conveyance of some property by a
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1 private owner, hasn't occurred that the Commission or the
2 Railroad cannot be allowed to close the old crossing.
3 MR. HAMAN: No, I think my argument is that
4 this Commission from my understanding of the procedural
5 history would not take action until the three conditions
6 were satisfied. Two of the three conditions have been,
7 but the third regarding Bonner Mall to convey to a public
8 entity, presumably the City of Ponderay, hasn't occurred.
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: And your argument is
10 we should not take action to close the crossing until
11 that has occurred.
12 MR. HAMAN: Well, I guess I'm sort of
13 restating what the Commission has stated in the past.
14 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay. I think it was
15 argued then and has been argued recently the Commission
16 has no legal authority to require such transfer of
17 property.
18 MR. HAMAN: Correct.
19 COMMISSIONER SMITH: If that's the case, do
20 you think it's reasonable for us to continue to wait for
21 something to happen which we have no authority to make
22 happen?
23 MR. HAMAN: I'm not suggesting that the
24 Commission wait. I tied that in with comments regarding
25 the ITD public hearings which would consider an
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1 alternative route.
2 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Mr. Haman, has waiting
3 made this case any easier up to now?
4 MR. HAMAN: I can't answer that. All I'm
5 saying is that this Commission has also recognized that
6 the ITD will hold public hearings, and Mayor Hunt also
7 commented on that, this summer and I think it would be
8 reasonable to wait for those public hearings to take
9 place and see what the ITD proposes.
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: Again, I'd like
13 to thank everyone for participating tonight and for
14 staying through the entire proceedings and I also would
15 just like to note that the times in which we have public
16 hearings in Boise, we're lucky if we get one or two
17 people to show up, so it's a very welcome sight to see
18 the number of people who have been here tonight and
19 testified.
20 At this point the Commission will take all
21 of your comments and written statements under
22 consideration and we hope to begin our deliberations
23 sometime within the next few weeks. It's our hope to
24 issue a written decision as soon as possible and it will
25 be mailed to all of the participants here tonight. With
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1 that, this public hearing is adjourned.
2 (The Hearing adjourned at 11:00 p.m.)
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1 AUTHENTICATION
2
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4 This is to certify that the foregoing
5 proceedings held in the matter of the petition from Union
6 Pacific Railroad Company to close a grade crossing in
7 Ponderay located at milepost 76.12, commencing at
8 7:00 p.m., on Monday, June 7, 1999, at the Edgewater
9 Resort, 56 Bridge Street, Sandpoint, Idaho, is a true and
10 correct transcript of said proceedings and the original
11 thereof for the file of the Commission.
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CONSTANCE S. BUCY
16 Certified Shorthand Reporter #187
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