20180705Public Hearing Transcript Vol II.pdf

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o
REC E IVE D
BEFoRE rHE IDAHo PUBLIC urIlIrIES coMMIssImE[fi JUL -5 [H l0; 03
IN THE MATTEB OE THE JOINT
APPLICAT]ON OF HYDRO ONE LIM]TED
AND AVISTA CCRPORAT]ON FOR
APPROVAL OF I',IERGER AGREEMENT
s e ON
offiilffi[NAL
MR
MR
MR
PUBL]C HEARING
SANDPOINT, IDAHO
JUNE 73, 2018
6:00 P.M.
PAUL KJELLANDER, PRESIDENT
ER]C ANDERSON, COMMTSSTONER
KARL KLE]N, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
APPEARANCES:
REPORTED BY:
PATRIC]A L. PULLO, CSR
Notary Public
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Spokane, Washington
509.455.4515
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www.mmcourt.com
Boise, ldaho
Southern Offices
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Court Reporting
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PROCEED
TAKEN JUNE 13, 2078,
]NGS
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AT 6:00 P.M
MR. KJELLANDER: Good evening, ladies and
gentlemen. If we could have you take a seat and
discontinue your conversation so we can begin with the
proceedings thi-s evening. First of aII, I want to
wefcome everyone to this proceedlng. This is a public
hearing. My name is Paul Kjellander. I'm a
commissioner with the Idaho Public Utilities Commissi-on.
Next to me is Eric Anderson, another commissioner. And
he and I w11I join our third colleague once this matter
is totally submitted to make a final determination on
this case.
This is the time and place for a public
hearing j-n Case No. AVU-E-71-09, AVU-G-17-05, also known
as "In the matter of the joint application of Hydro One
Llmited and Avista Corporation for approval of merger
agreement. "
Agaln, the purpose for thls evenj-ng is as a
public hearing. And our purpose is to take testimony
from the public regarding the case. This is an
opportunlty for you, members of the public and who are
also Avista customers, to get their statement entered
into the record that will- u1timately assist this
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cornmisslon in its deliberation process.
As further background, the commission serves
in a simil-ar capacity as a district court, and we
generally follow distrlct court rules. So we're here
this evening to help create a fuIIy developed record.
We're not here today to pass judgment on comments or
statements made for the offi-cial record. The
commissioners serve as judges and accordingly do not
answer questions related to the case other than
questions regarding procedure. The commissj-on will not
begin to delj-berate on the merits of this case until the
official record is closed. Additionally, the
commissioners, like judges, only speak through their
orders and as it rel-ates to any final ruling on this
matter. So just l-et me reiterate that we serve as
judges and like judges do not comment on the merits of
the case while the docket is still- open.
Procedurally, as we begin this evening, we'II
caII your name from the sign-up sheet. You will then
take the stand. And our deputy attorney general, KarI
Klein, will ask you to raise your right hand and you'11
be sworn in. Then the deputy attorney general wil-l- ask
you a few short questions to get you officially on the
record. You will next be al-l-owed to provide your
statement for the record. And following your statement
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there might be questions from some of the legal counsef
that is present tonight representing some of the
parties, but that's not very likely. Al-so, there is an
opportunity for the commissioners to ask questions, but
typically we generally don't ask any questj-ons. That
would fal-l under the category of cross-examination. We
tend not to cross-examine public witnesses. Usually, if
there are any questions, it's just a follow-up of if
people have questions about service, we may ask
additional questions about outages or things that may
occur in that capacity.
As far as your statement tonight, please
remember that the decorum for this proceeding is similar
to a courtroom. Your comments should be directed to the
commissioners and not to the members of the audience.
For those in the audiencer we ask that you refrain from
reacting to any testimony while it's being provided,
that means no clapping or other verbal- comments. And we
appreciate your willingness to respect this process.
Since our cases are judicial in nature, we
have a court reporter. Patty Pullo this evening w111 be
serving in that capacity. She'11 make the official
transcription for tonlght's hearing. The transcript is
necessary because 1n our quasi judicial rol-e, we must
base our decisions on the official record and that
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record is also slgnificant ln the event that our
decisions appeal to the Idaho State Supreme Court.
So at this point I'd like to take the
appearances of the parties. And I bel-ieve we have
counsel for Avista.
MR. MEYER: Yes. Thank you. David Meyer
appearing for Avista. And wefcome.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you, David. I know you
also have some other representatives from the company.
If at a break there are any questions of the company
specifically, f 'm sure they'1I be availabl-e if anyone
has a specific question for Avista. Is that correct?
MR. MEYER: That's correct. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. Is there anyone
representing Hydro One?
MR. LEVITAN: Yes. Daniel Levitan, Hydro One.
MR. KJELLANDER: And, Daniel-, you're not an
attorney, correct?
MR. LEVITAN: Correct.
MR. KJELLANDER: So there will be no cross-
examination questions from you this evening. Thank you.
For commission staff we have Karl- Kl-ein.
MR. KLEIN: Yes, Karl Klein.
MR. KJELLANDER: And Karl- is the deputy
attorney general with the Idaho PubIic Utilities
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Commission.
Anyone representing the Idaho Forest Group?
(No response. )
MR. KJELLANDER: Cl-earwater Paper Corporation?
(No response. )
MR. KJELLANDER: Community Action Partnership?
(No response. )
MR. KJELLANDER: Idaho Conservation League?
MR. OTTO: Yes, Commissioner. Ben j ami-n Otto
with the Idaho Conservation League.
MR. KJELLANDER: And I know you're an attorney
representing the Idaho Conservation League. Do you
j-ntend to ask any cross this eveni-ng?
MR. OTTO: No, sj-r. Just here to listen.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. And anyone
representing the Washington and Northern Idaho District
Council- of Laborers?
(No response. )
MR. KJELLANDER: Okay. Thank you. So are
there any other parties that we may have missed? If
not, let's then begin with our first witness this
evening. And T apologize in advance if I shoul-d
accidentally stumbl-e over the pronunciation of your
name. The f irst one I think I ' l-l- get right. Lewis
Hodge.
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to
the
MR. KLEIN: Will you
you swear or affirm that the
give is the truth, the whole
truth?
truth and nothlng
raise your
testimony
right
you' re
hand.
about
but
Do
MR.
MR.
and spe1l your
MR.HODGE:
L-e-w-i-s. Last name
HODGE: I do.
KLEIN: Will you please state your name
last name for the record.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
Priest River.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
www. mmcourt . com PubIic Hearing
KLEIN:
HODGE:
KLEIN:
HODGE:
Lewis Hodge. First name is Lewis,
is Hodge, H-o-d-g-e.
And what's your address?
My
Address.
128 Morning Star Mountain Road,
Are you an Avista customer?
f'm on Northern Lights.
Okay. Go ahead.
Okay. So f can say whatever I
o
KLEIN:
HODGE:
KLEIN:
HODGE:
want?
MR. KLEIN: Yes.
MR. HODGE: A11 right. I have two objections
to this. I find it ludicrous that we're allowing a
foreign company to buy any quantity of American
infrastructure.
THE PUBLIC: We lost you.
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MR. KJELLANDER: The mic is off.
THE PUBLIC: We can't hear him.
(Brief pause. )
MR. HODGE: Okay. Is that better?
THE PUBLIC: Yes.
MR. HODGE: Number one, I find it l-udicrous
that we I re allowing a foreign company to borrow to
buy any part of America's infrastructure regarding
electricity. And number two, Hydro One is a cl-imate
change protocol company. And to me it smel-l-s like
cl-imate change coming in the back door, something that
the people, the Congress and the President have al-l-
rejected. And it's a way of getting carbon tax credits
on the back of taxpayers here. I don't think it's
right. So I'm against it.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comment
this evening.
MR. HODGE: Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: AIso thanks for coming out.
Tom Horne.
MR. KLEIN: Raj-se your right hand. Do you
swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give
is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. HORNE: Yes, I do.
MR. KLEIN: Would you please state and spell
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your name.
MR. HORNE: My name is Tom Horne, H-o-r-n-e.
MR. KLEIN: And whatrs your residence address?
MR. HORNE: My residence address 1s in Nine
MiIe Fall-s in Washington. But I'm a Avista customer. I
was passing through, and I heard about this. I've been
an Avista customer for 41 years. And I object to this
dea1.
MR. KLEIN: Go ahead.
MR. HORNE: Okay. One of the primary
objections to this deal that I have that I think is
that I think it's been done in bad faith. We had the
the Ontario residents' power bills have been about
were about half of Avista's bills around 2000. Now
they're approxj-mately twice what Avista bj-l-Is are. So
this fourfold increase in fairly short time, you know,
when you considering been a I've been a customer
for 47 years has outraged the people of Ontario. And
as a result they threw out the liberals. And they
they've elected a new party to control the Ontario
government, Progressive Conservatives. To me that
should be the oxymoron party, but other than that.
And the the head of the Progressive
Conservatives says for months said that what he wants
to do is fire the CEO of Hydro One. Now, he can't quite
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do that. He has to fire the entire board, get another
board appointed and then they can fire the head of Hydro
One, if you can get the right people on the board and do
it, which he probably can.
So anyhow, this negotiation has been going on
while that situation has been in p1ace. Hydro One
didn't pull out in respect to the desires you know,
the the apparent desires of the people that own most
of Hydro One. The people of Ontario own 41 percent of
Hydro One at this particular moment. And they've
expressed themsel-ves and kicked out the manager or
kicked out the the leadership that was for or that
was supported by this current CEO of Hydro One.
Al-so, this deaf has been in progress since
fast summer. There was an SEC filing in October. The
SEC f iling detai1ed 50 let' s see 50, 515, 000
severance package that would be shared by 13 Avista
executives. They l-ist it by name exactly how much each
one is going to get. I haven't seen a thing about that
in the paper. I haven't seen a thing about it in the
UTC hearings in Washington. That that is a sa.l-ient
fact that these fol-ks, in my opinion, were bribed to
sel-l- this company.
The the new premier of Ontario feels the
same way. He was outraged when he first heard about
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this. He didn't hear about it until May. So this has
been kind of under the radar.
So, anyhow, I object. I think the the
managers of Hydro One have broke faith with their
people, the people of Ontario who own majority or who
are the largest owner of that thing. And I think that
the managers of Avista have clearly been bribed. This
is not going to benefit the ratepayers of Avista.
Avista is a pri-vate company, yeah. But it's a monopoly,
regulated by you folks and paid for by us, and you too
probabJ-y.
But, anyhow, I appreciate you taking these
other factors into consideration when you make your
decision. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. We appreciate
your comments. I wil-l call next Patrick Cave.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. CAVE: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Wil-l you please state and spe11
your name.
MR. CAVE: Yes. My name is Patrick Cave.
P-a-t-r-i-c-k. My last name is Cave, C-a-v-e.
MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
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MR. CAVE:. 2502 Sunnyside Road, Sandpoint.
MR. KLEfN: Are you a customer of Avista?
MR. CAVE: Yes, electric electric customer.
MR. KLETN: Please go ahead.
MR. CAVE: I'm here today to support the
comment that I had registered onto the Avista onto
the IPCU website on June 8th. And it's under the title
of "Underserved and Unserved Natural- Gas Customers of
Avista Util-ities. "
(Brief interruption. )
MR. CAVE: I'm here to support the comment
that I had registered onto the website for the Idaho
Publ-ic Utilities Commission on June 8th. And that
comment is under title of "Underserved, Unserved Natural-
Gas Customers of Avista Util-lties. "
And my concern as detail-ed here is referencing
a similar scenario that l-ald out in New Mexico when
New Mexico Gas was purchased by an entity, where
difficult-to-serve clients, unserved/underserved
cl-ients, were then allotted a $10 million stipulation in
the purchase agreement to set aside those funds for
future potential customers. And Irm asking that that
same type of stipulatj-on be considered during the
procurement of Avista by Ontario One Hydro One.
Thank you.
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MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. Let's call Angelo
Lonzisero.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testj-mony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. LONZTSBRO: I do.
MR. KLETN: Pl-ease state and spell your name.
MR. LONZISERO: Angelo Lonzisero,
L-o-n-z-i-s-e-r-o.
MR. KLEIN: Whatrs your address?
MR. LONZISERO: 24 Humbug Lane, Sagle, Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MR. LONZISERO: No, f'm not.
MR. KLEfN: Okay. Go ahead.
MR. LONZISERO: So in looking at the proposed
merger, we're looking at Hydro One, an Ontario-owned
company. We're looklng at a company who's in financial-
straits. We're looking at a company who has negative
investment house ratings. Werre looking at a company
with infrastructure that's falling apart. They have
where liability problems. Werre looking at a company
that's raised its rates to such astronomical l-evel-s that
they're cutting people off by the hundreds of thousands
f or nonpayment of their bil-l-s. So I don't understand in
my mind why Avista wou1d like to tie itself to a failing
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company and why j-n God's name any of the jurisdictions,
Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Alaska, Washington, and the
federal government woul-d allow thls to happen.
In your decislon your decision is
transitory. There's a future, and we don't know what
the future is going to be. You can't guarantee us that
the rates won't go up. You can't guarantee us that the
company is going to be sol-vent. For all we know, Hydro
One could go bankrupt. They could take the assets of
Avista and fil-e them into the bankruptcy. We coufd lose
al-l the lnfrastructure here. We're talking about 15
hydroelectric dams that Avista owns. Fifteen. That's
the majorlty -- probably the majority of or a big chunk
of all the power generated in the Northwest.
Now you sit here. There's only two dams or
three dams in that reside in Idaho. And I can
understand that. But we have to l-ook at the overall-
scope of this. The scope is we have a foreign entity
comj-ng into the United States, coming into these
jurisdictions, taking control of this company. For what
reason we don't know. It's not clear to us. Avista and
Hydro One say itrs, oh, economy of scal-e. We're going
to save so much money. How much money can you save
behind a conductor wire in a bigger quantity? Not much.
So now we have a company thatrs going to pay
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$51 mi11j-on to the board of Avlsta, go-away money. Now
you have the rate the sharehol-ders, the Avista
shareholders. They're getting a 20-some-odd-percent
bump on their stock when they sell it back to the
company. Everybody is getting money here, but nobody is
Iooking at the big picture. This is what we have you
for. You are supposed to look out for the ratepayers,
the citizens of Idaho. We do not want this merger to go
through. That's all I have to say.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your testimony
this evening. Let's call Andrew Scott.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whol-e
truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. SCOTT: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pfease state and spell your name.
MR. SCOTT: Flrst name Andrew. Last name
Scott, S-c-o-t-t.
MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
MR. SCOTT: 2109I Highway 47, Blanchard,
Idaho
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vTp
MR.
MR.
\4p
KLEIN:
SCOTT:
KLEIN:
SCOTT:
Are you
I am.
PIease
Okay.
an Avlsta customer?
go ahead.
I woul-d like to first statetPage 15
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that I'm opposed to this merger. There's a lot of
uncertainty. Irve spent the last 30 years working on
hydroelectric projects around the entire United States.
I understand how they're regulated. I understand the
importance of controlling the water. And what we're
looking at here is a Canadj-an company coming in to have
potentially control of the water that comes in Idaho
through the Clark Fork River. We al-so have to take in
account the Columbia River Treaty that 1s being
negotiated with Canada at the same time. And so I think
what we're seeing in ldaho and Washington is a pinch
from Canada looking at our waLer rights. Water in north
Idaho and a1I of Idaho is one of our most important
resources that we need to protect for the citizens of
Idaho and this country.
A1so, f have a real problem with, obviously,
the golden parachute that's being given to the
executives of Avista. I think as a customer for 20
years to see my rates go up that it's just absolutely
ludicrous that that much money should be paid to the
upper management of Avista.
Lastly, I have a real problem with some of the
intervenors and some of the ideas that they have,
particularly the Idaho Conservation League who states
that their goal is to make Idaho a coal-free state.
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Which f think we depend on coal- power generated for the
entire country also Idaho. And I have a real concern
that in some of their comments that they have stated
that they would l-ike to that the staff of the Idaho
Publ-ic Utillty Commissj-on has created an Idaho
stakehol-der group that w1l-l allocate funds to the tune
of 5.3 million over ten years to new conservation
programs. I don't think any of the citizens are
inc]uded in this.
I'd like to fuIIy understand from the PUC how
this group was created, who's on it and how the
decisions are made to allocate these funds. So I think
it's been kind of held from the public and the public
doesn't understand this and shoul-d be made aware of
this. Other than that, like f said, I am opposed to
this merger. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: And thank you, Mr. Scott, for
your testimony this evening. Larry Spencer.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but. the truth?
MR. SPENCER: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease state and spe1I your name.
MR. SPENCER: Larry, L-a-r-r-y, Spencer,
S-p-e-n-c-e-r.
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MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
MR. SPENCER: My address is 605 East 17th,
Post Ea1Ls, Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you a customer of Avista?
MR. SPENCER: Yes.
MR. KLEIN : Pl-ease go ahead.
THE PUBLIC: CouJ-d you speak up, please.
' THE PUBLIC: We're having a hard time
MR. SPENCER: Is this
MR. KLEIN: Is that on?
(Brief interruption. )
MR. SPENCER: I would ask that if the audience
can't hear me that somebody just says "fouder" back
there so I can remember to get closer to it or
something.
I have a couple of questions. First of all,
there's three board members. The l-ast one I didnrt
catch why she's not here today or
MR. KJELLANDER: Krlstlne Raper is has
another appointment. She was at the meetings last
night, but she had to return to Boise. She wil-l- be
reviewing the transcript.
MR. SPENCER: Okay. And then also T had a
question for the attorney. With regard to the Supreme
Court reviewing or having the final- say on the decision
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here, in land use issues the Supreme Court has
that it does not substitute itself -- the court
substitute itself for the hearing body and will
substitute its opinions or decisions. Is that
here or
decided
does not
not
the case
we
take
MR. KJELLANDER: Those are questions that
can respond to on the break. We're here tonight to
your testimony.
MR. SPENCER: A11 right.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you.
MR. SPENCER: So selling Avista to Hydro One
woul-d be a boon for Avista shareholders. And evidently
the
(Brief interruption. )
MR. KJELLANDER: Just a moment. If we could
just ask everybody to please sil-ence their technology
that would be somewhat helpful for this evening since
we're having a little bit of diffj-culty with the
microphone. I'm sorry to lnterrupt you.
MR. SPENCER: No problem.
MR. KJELLANDER: You keep getting started and
we keep interrupting you. I sincerely apologize.
MR. SPENCER: (Continuing. ) who would be
paid significantly more than their stock is worth but
not such a good deal for Avista consumers. How bad?
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Well, nobody knows yet.
The Ontario government who owns 41 percent of
Hydro One has been charging ahead wlth the green energy
mandate driving the price of el-ectricity through the
roof. I understand itrs come back down a litt1e bit,
but they've had some real- problems with management and
pricing up there. As mentloned earlier, it cost the
Liberal Party in Canada dearly at the election. And so
now we don't know exactly what's going to happen. And
one concern is that the financlal stake that Hydro One
hol-ds could be significantly impacted by the change of
leadership of Ontario. Eor example, the because of
the results of that election, a day or two later there
was a story or a couple days ago there was a story
how carbon credits in Cal-iforni-a had fal-len in their
value by about 25 percent. So it has there's a l-ot
of ramifications that may impact the financial- heal-th of
Hydro One.
I have a concern and I don't know if it's a
valid one but it's a concern of what happens j-f the
government mandates in the future certain programs l-ike
the instal-Iing throughout the Hydro One's -- al-l- of
Hydro One's customer service, internationally included,
of carbon scrubbers that cost bazil-lions of dol-l-ars. Is
that something that we wil-l be able to say nor w€'re not
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going to be a part of? I don't think we do. I think we
got to go along for the ride, and I have concerns about
that.
This isn't a business like a 25- or a 30-year
lifespan sawmil-l- that we're entering into some kind of
an agreement with Canada. This is the lifeblood, not
just for the water but for the electricity, of our
economy.
Ten years ago nobody had heard of Bitcoins or
Bitcoin mining. Now we find that they're uslng Bitcoin
mining as a as a occupation in areas where there's
cheap electricity, because it uses a l-ot of electricity.
We don't know what the future's going to hol-d. But this
is a forever deal-. And I'm a little bit concerned that
some point in the future we're going to l-ook back on
this a little bit like Russia l-ooked back on having sold
Alaska to us $Z mill-ion after gold got discovered. V[e
can't undo this deal any more than they could. Itrs a
permanent one.
f 'd tike to tal-k about what happens when
stakeholders like the ratepayers do not have a seat at
the table. Now, I realize that the PUC is stil-l- going
to be involved. But when you remove the decision making
from a regional board who lives here in the community to
a dlfferent country that their val-ues might not be the
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same as ours, you might find that we get the short end
of the stick in the future. And I woul-d point to what's
happening in Colstrip as part of this deal-.
In CoIstrip, Montana, Avista was planning to
shut down essentially the town, which is basical-ly the
mine and al-l- the jobs. But they were going to shut it
down in 2)3)-something. As part of what the Idaho
Conservation Group has put together, there's kind of an
unofficial deal that now the town mine is going to be
shut down in nine years. And I woul-d hold that that's
because they don't have a seat at the tabl-e, and the
decisions are not theirs to make. Theyrre simply along
for ride. And I believe that that's the same way we'11
be along for the ride in the future.
One woul-d think that if losing control of the
el-ectric grid and generation facility is such a bad idea
the State legislature would make it iIIegaI. It turns
out they did, in a way. They passed a law that I would
like to point out that the law that you're following
the PUC is following as this process which mandates
that they have to ensure the rates aren't going to rise
and there's public good, that sect j-on of l-aw is Idaho
Code 61-328. It was passed in 796L by the Idaho
legislature. It was passed together with 6l-327 and
severaf subsequent pieces. And those are the ones I'd
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like to draw attention to because I don't think the
public understands them.
The l-aw immediately preceding that, the first
in the section which was passed at the same exact time
that they mandated public good has to be considered, was
kind of harsh on the idea of seJ-ling Idaho power grids
away from Idaho. In fact, they made it a felony. If
Avista were to try to make this sale to the city of
Liberty Lake, I'11- get to what wil-l- happen, but it's a
crime for a city in Washington state to purchase or
purchase as part of a group Avista.
The first section of the law is a very
hard-to-read piece. Itrs 330 words in one sentence. It
has 45 or 46 commas and four semicolons. ft's not an
easy one to get through. So what I did was I boiled
down the top of j-t. The heading is call-ed "Electric
utllity property acquisition by certain public agencies
prohibited. " And I took the first part of that and took
out some of the superfluous language and just I
hiqhlighted part of it. So I'm going to kind of read
it. It reads a l-lttle bit better, but i-trs the same
thing.
It says, No titl-e to or interest in any public
utility property located in this state which is used in
the generation, transmission, distribution or supply of
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el-ectrical power and energy to the public shal1 be
transferred or is transferable to any government or
municipal corporation, quasi municipal corporation, et
cetera, et cetera, organized or existing under the laws
of any other state.
Now, the argument could certainly be made that
Ontario is not another state. But I think the purpose
of what they were saying here appJ-ies very well and that
is we don't want decisions affecting our critical
infrastructure of electricity made in an area where we
lack control.
So there's some ramif icati-ons that are the
most severe f've ever seen the Idaho legislature
prescribe from what happens if somebody conspires to
sell- Avista's dam to a power company 1n Liberty Lake,
for example, thatrs owned by a government in some other
portion. First of all, again it's a felony. Secondly,
the attorney general is ordered to confj-scate the
property for the State of Idaho. The word they use is
escheat. But itrs basically if you if Avista were to
sell to a clty outside of Idaho, they l-ose all- of their
Idaho assets that were a part of that sale. And that's
a pretty significant position. It's not just don't do
thls. ft's we really mean don't do this.
I believe that if they had considered the idea
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that we might one day be facing a foreign government
and it could be China, it could be Canada, it could be
Iraq wanting to buy our power grids that they would
have said no, that's not okay too. But I think that
that wasn't real-Iy on their radar. But what they were
saying is we want the control to stay under the l-aws of
Idaho or at l-east, in this case, where it's regional.
There's a movj-e that f appreciate f rom --
Pierce Brosnan had a saying in this movie. He was being
asked by hls therapist, Under what cj-rcumstances could a
woman trust you? He thought about it and he said, I
guess if her interests weren't too divergent from those
of myself. And my concern is that our interests here
are pretty closely aligned with those of Spokane and
more So, of course, than King County but far less so
than those of another country.
f'm going to just recap this, look through
here for just a second, see if there's anything that
I've that I wanted to say that I missed.
So anyway those are yeah, that's that's
essentially what I came to tefl- you. And I'm
concerned oh, there's one other thing. The mandate
that you do something that's in the public Aood came
from the legislature in 1951. They said it must be in
the pub11c j-nterest. And at the same time they passed
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that they passed this law. So I woul-d hol-d that while
the idea of what's in the public good might be nebulous,
maybe one person thinks itrs okay to raise rates if
we're going to help the poor or whatever, I wou1d hol-d
that the legislature had a pretty good idea that this
was absolutely, definitely not in the public interest.
Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. And thank you for
your testimony. I apologize for the microphone issues.
Let' s call- next Jef f Ty1er.
MR. KLEIN: Can you raise your right hand. Do
you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to
give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth?
MR. TYLER: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Would you please state and spe1I
your last name.
MR. TYLER:
MR. KLEIN:
MR. TYLER:
Idaho.
MR. KLEIN:
MR. TYLER:
MR. KLEIN:
MR. TYLER:
Jeff Tyler, T-y-f-e-r.
And whatfs your address?
5892 Harbor Drive, Coeur d'Alene,
Are you an Avista customer?
Yes, I am.
Please go ahead.
I brought up a littl-e bit ago and
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left this on the table for you guys. It's not from me.
The name up on top is Dave Bol-eneus. He's a geologist
that has been informing me and some others about what's
happening here. And I might touch on that a little bit.
I, however, dil kind of dj-scouraged. I just
got a e-mail- f rom an Avista an Avj-sta e-maiI. And
they're basically saying that al-l- the PUCs are agreed
with this except for three today, the Oregon, Washington
and ldaho. And then at the bottom it says, "Perhaps you
are aware of individuals who have been advocating to
have organizations and public entities oppose the
merger. Their claims are predicated on very inaccurate
and incomplete informatJ-on, and they proffer concfusions
that cannot and wil-l- not come to pass. " So it kind of
gives me an idea of the attitude from Avista.
How many of you have heard of Uranium One?
Uranium One was founded by the same guy who founded
Hydro One. Guy's name is Maurj-ce Strong, a Canadian
who's a high school dropout. And he's been called the
father of the climate change. Hers the one who started
this as part of the Paris climate treaty. And so
this to me this whol-e thing that we're going through,
it's not your typical merger and acquisition because if
i-t was I wouldn't be here.
The reason lrm here is because me and a lot of
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people I know I'm al-so on the Republican Central
Committee. And we we bel-ieve that Idaho shoul-d not
be controlled by another country or another state.
These other two out of the three, I've been tol-d the
only hope we have of stopping this is the Idaho PUC. We
all know the politics in Oregon and Washlngton. We know
that the governor in Washington wants this to happen.
He's behind the cl-imate change and the .Paris accord.
So what the big picture here is is we're
appealing to you, our Idaho board, knowing that you were
appointed by a republican governor j-n a republican state
to be the ones with the backbone to stop this. Because
otherwise it 1s l-ost and and going in there's
plenty of people that you've heard from and plenty of
evidence, even on this paper, of how bad this is.
It's basically a ruse to monetize carbon. And
it's been going on around the world. ft's a
UN-contro11ed thing. And Maurice Strong is all about
the UN. He's the one that dreamed up the global warming
idea. The CEO of Ontario Hydro UN UN consider
chairman of UNrs cl-imate summit in Rio de Janeiro to
convince governments of cl-imate change in the use of
fossil fuel-s. He claims climate catastrophe to
facil-itate g1oba1 governance by UN. So basically this
Hydro One is just a you know, it brought to for
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f ruition by UN climate-type rul-es.
Ontario had the lowest energy costs in Canada.
And so it was the perfect place to go in and find room
to raise rates. Just as here in northern Idaho we've
been among the cheapest power in our country. So why --
so this is the perfect place to bring in the Paris
climate accord.
Now, a l-ot of the rates that that they're
paying in Ontario are due to a g1oba1 adjustment charge
of 70 percent. So when people get a bill in Ontario,
you have your regular charge then you have your global
adjustment charge. That goes along with this whole
climate change ruse. So that's why the bills have
skyrocketed. And somebody mentj-oned that the prices
have come down recently, in the last couple years. The
reason why the prices came down is because they borrowed
against their company to l-ower the rates. So now
they're in massive debt of bill-ions of dol-l-ars because
people were in such in arms about their rates
skyrocketing that they're actually borrowing to get
people's bill-s down. Thatrs another ruse to try to
sati-sfy their customers. But they're getting more
increasingly in debt.
That is what they're going to bring to Idaho.
I don't thlnk so. I know that to me and al-I my fellow
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republ-icans in the state will fight this. If we need to
even work towards, you know, having elections for
utility commissioners or somethj-ng. I mean, this is
going to be fought in Idaho by the people. And what
we're asking you to do is to stand with the people of
Idaho, the ones the republicans that I assume you
guys are, even though all the rest of the states and the
national- and international- interest is to go along with
climat.e change.
There's plenty of science that says carbon
dioxide , CO2, is actually good for the planet. You hear
from the other side that, oh, this is the sky is
fa11ing. Millions of years ago there was higher parts
per million of carbon dioxide than there is now. Werre
actually running out of carbon dioxlde over the last
hundreds of years. There's some giggles by some
environmental-ists here. But that is scientific fact.
There's scientists from NASA that will back up all- this
kind of science. They have their own scientists that
that support their side, and we have our side. Of
course, like I said, Oregon and Washington woul-d think
that I was really out of my mj-nd, but but I feel l-ike
Irm a common-sense guy.
And another thing about CO2 that is proven,
that I even learned in elementary school-, was that CO2
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is good for plants and grasses and bushes everything.
It's good for greenery. The more CO2 you have the
greener things are going to be. You take the CO2 out
and it kil]s. It has been killing trees now because
there's not as much CO2 as there used to be. And so f I d
l-ike to hear the gigglers, you know, what they think
about that. And also that the trees and al-l those
are what takes the CO2 and turns it into oxygen. So you
take CO2 out of our atmosphere then you're also taking
oxygen out.
It's just a it's just a big, huge political
ploy by UN, one worl-d government T guess you can sdy, to
push this agenda. But Idaho needs to be the one to stop
it. We're the only chance of stopping it. We can go
up, I guess, and try to convince Trump and our
congressmen and stuff if we have to. But we will fight
this.
Just an example of some some people that
have had a hard time. There's fifty 50,000
households were disconnected in Ontario due to high cost
of electricity. Dj-sconnects grew 79 percent in three
years. They're going off grid and using generators and
barbecues because they can't afford their electricity
bilI. Parents are having to choose between feeding
their kids or paying their power biII. So I don't
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know this is not even reaIly a political party thing.
f don't know anybody from the other side that is
would, you know, want to consider feeding their kids or
paying their power bill. I mean, that's kind of overall-
everybody.
I know it sounds good right now because
theyrre saying for the next two, three, four, five years
or whatever that our bill-s aren't going to go up. WeIl,
that's because they're buyi-ng it down. They've
committed I forgot how many mill-ion dol-lars
they're going to buy our rates down for a whil-e. Itrs
called a l-oss-leader when you're in economy class.
Grocery stores do it. You know, the ketchup that we're
going to knock a buck off, come in and buy this ketchup.
And then you buy all the other products while you're
there, and they jump those rates up. They've got a
loss-leader. You know, we're going to l-ower your rates
for a while. Oh, okay. Then j-t's going to skyrocket
after those years are up. That's what their history is.
And that's that's what we have here in this case is
history.
We have the history of what's been happening
And the gentleman earlier mentionedwlth Hydro One.
that, you know,
there in Ontario
theyrve kicked out the woman premier
that she stated we have it on
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I've seen a video where she stated that Ontario would
run Hydro One and not all-ow Avlsta or America to run
Hydro One, that they in Ontario would. And she got
beaten by the Ford gentleman. And that was his
platform. I saw a video where Ford went to speak in
front of a crowd, and the whole room was filled wlth "No
Hydro One" signs. And he got elected. And the first
time in 15 years they kicked the liberals out and put in
the Progressive Conservatives. That same thing is golng
to happen here if you guys approve this. And, like I
said, you guys are the only ones that can stop it at
this point. So that's rea1Iy, you know, my p1ea.
I know last night I heard in Moscow the room
was full of the fol-ks from the Idaho Conservation
League. And so the majority was in support of this
merger. And I, too, am concerned that, you know, why
did it says right here in this decision memorandum
from a month ago the some of the intervening parties
along with this deal is Tdaho Forest Group, Clearwater
Paper, Idaho Conservation League, the Community Actlon
Partnership, the Association of Idaho and the Washington
and Northern Idaho District Council of Laborers
intervened as parties. Wasnrt Colstrip power or
Colstrip town wasn't on here. But a conservation league
is on here. So it klnd of tel-l-s you the flavor of how
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they want this to go.
Coal is still going to be shipped through here
to China. China is going to keep making new coal plants
every day. We've got ways to make coal cleaner. But
what Hydro One is doing is they're taking the coaf
power and they have a lot of nuclear power. They
want to shut down the coal power, and they want more
they're puttlng up thousands of windmills, killing
thousands of eagles. And they're al-so putting up
thousands of arrays of solar. But the funny thing about
the sofar and the windmills is they onJ-y work at when
therers sun and when there's wind. And what they're
doing up there is when they have a lot of wind and the.,
don't have enough people to use that power, they're
practically giving it away across the border to New York
state. And but the people in Ontarlo are having to
pay for all that. New York state's getting it for free.
And that's harming those Hydro One fol-ks up there too.
I could go on and on. There's so many
different reasons to not do this. And I'm -- and you're
probably golng to have to hear from me, unless f can't
speak, tomorrow night because I'm goJ-ng to be in the
Coeur d'Alene one tomorrow night. But that's just my
plea. And I think the plea of a l-ot of people I know is
that you guys are the only ones that are going to be
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able to stop this from happening. And as republicans I
would -- I would hope that you guys would be the ones to
do it. So thank you very much.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your testimony
this evening. Let's cal-l- Trevor Anderson.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whol-e
truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. ANDERSON: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease state your name and spe1I
your last name.
MR. ANDERSON: Trevor Anderson,
A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. f'm going to keep it short and sweet.
MR. KLEIN: Would you give me your address
l- an
MR. ANDERSON: Oh, yeah. 774 Hickory Street
here in Sandpoint.
MR. KLEIN: And then are you a customer of
Avista?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I am.
MR. KLEIN: Please go ahead.
MR. ANDERSON: Irm going to keep it short and
sweet. Everyone else has pretty much already said al-l-
the points. Irm just going to say that I'm against the
merger for a variety of different reasons and most of
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which have already been spoken. And I'm going to leave
it at that.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments
this eveni-ng. Mary Anderson.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MS. ANDERSON: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Please state your name and spe11
your last name.
MS. ANDERSON: Mary Anderson, A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n.
MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
MS. ANDERSON: 60 Eagle Crest Drj-ve in Sag1e,
Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MS. ANDERSON: I am an Avi-sta customer.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease go ahead.
MS. ANDERSON: Thank you for your time this
evening. Personally Ird like to say that Irm opposed to
a foreign company, s1ash, government owning a public
utility company in the United States of America.
My utilities have doubl-ed in the l-ast 13
years. I live in the same house. I have the same
heating system. And my utilities have doubled. And my
understanding is with this new merger that we could be
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looking at potential -- more potential rate hikes and
much larger rates. And I think that once we give our
public utilities away to a foreign company forelgn
country that we're not going to have any control over
how much our rates wi}l be raised. And I think that
there's a l-ot of people in north Idaho right now that
are struggling to pay their utility bill today as it is
right now. And I honestly know that there are people
that do have to choose between heat, food and medicine.
And by selling our utility, werre just we're not
going to have any say in it. So I really I ask you
to really consj-der this. And I ask you to please not
vote for 1t. I ask you to oppose 1t.
I al-so wou1d say to the fol-ks who tal-k about
the windmil-ls , if anyone has ever l-ived in an area where
there 1s windmills and they think that they're so
wonderful, I can tel-l- you that the windmills create a
dust al-l- the time. If you go along the Gorge in Oregon
and Washington and they have all those windmills running
all the time. I know f know people personally that
l-ive there. They never had dust in that area before
like they do now. There's also vibration in the ground
that never goes away. As J-ong as those windmills are
turning, there's a vibration that the fol-ks that l-ive in
those communities feel. You never hear about that from
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anyone. You have to know people personally that l-ive in
those areas that can attest to that. And that's not
even taking into account the number of birds that, you
know, are killed on a reguJ-ar basis
But my main concern j-s that when we get
when we sel-I our utility to a foreign country and to
foreign people that we've now lost control-. And we just
can't afford to do that. So I would ask that you oppose
this.
MR.
this evening.
MR.
hand. Do you
about to give
but the truth?
MS.
KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments
Jane Frltz.
KLEIN: Would you please raise your ri-ght
swear or affirm that the testimony you're
is the truth, the whole truth and nothing
FRITZ:I do.
Pl-ease state your name and spell
MS. FRITZ: Tt's Jane Fritz. J-a-n-e
your last name.
F-r-:--L-2.
MR. KLEIN:
KLEIN:
FR]TZ:
KLEIN:
FRITZ:
KLEIN:
MR
MS
MR
MS
MR
And whatfs your address?
Physical or post office box?
Residence address, please.
Physical address?
Sure.
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MS. FRITZ: 10547 West Pine Street in
Sandpoint.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MS. FRITZ: I am and have been for most of the
40 years I 've l- j-ved here.
MR. KLEIN: Please go ahead.
MS. FRITZ: First of all, T want to thank the
commissioners for coming up to Sandpoint to take our
testimony. And I once gave testimony to you by phone.
And so it's nice to see real- people j-n person. And it
is an opportunity as someone who has lived in Bonner
County for 40 years, in January, and who has been a
conservationist in this community. And I might al-so add
that I'm a registered republican and have been for a
while now.
MR. KJELLANDER: ff we could just ask to
maintain the decorum of the public hearing thls evening
and please refrain from any comments or responses to
comments that are made by people who are testifying.
MS. FRfTZ: Thank you, sir.
And f al-so have worked on timber issues, in
particular with Idaho Forest Group, in Idaho. And so
and I am not a member of the Idaho Conservation League
or any other group at this point besides one that ffm on
the board of directors of called the Idaho Mythweaver
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and we work with the Idaho tribes on cul-tural- issues.
So the other thing I want to sdy, first off,
is that I am in support of the merger between Hydro One
and Avista. And f have good reasons for that. First of
all, a little bit of my background. In addition to
being a conservationist in the state for a1most 40
years, I have also been on the relicensing team with the
Cabinet Gorge Dam and the Noxon Rapi-ds Dam for
relicensing FERC relicensing so many years ago.
I served as a member of a now defunct wil-dlife
group cal-l-ed the Panhand1e Loon and Wetlands Project.
So I was one of the stakehol-ders at the table, the
wetl-and and wildlife working group. I served in that
capacity as a volunteer, citizen member for two and a
half years. Once a month, two days a month, I sat at
the table with utilities, agency members, stakeholders
of al-l- kinds. And we hashed out a relicensing
agreement. It was the very first time in the history of
the Unlted States that that had ever happened with a
hydroelectric company. It was significant because the
people were involved. And I have great confj-dence
excuse me, people I have great confidence that Avista
and Hydro One wil-l- continue that policy of working with
l-ocal- citizens.
Since the relicensing process, I have also
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been involved on discussions with Avista managers, both
1ocalIy and in Spokane, ofl their transmissj-on l-ine which
was just replaced, in fact right in front of my house.
Some of the poles are pretty good size, and f'm not real
happy with them. But I understand that everyone's
el-ectric usage has skyrocketed. And we have had the
cheapest energy in the United States here in the
northwest. And largely we have borrowed against the
future generations to get it.
I am a conservationist also in using
electricity. I live in a tiny house that's 400 square
feet intentionally. I buil-t it. And it I have lived
with solar energy in the past but decided to go with
electricity with Avista because my electric bill-s are
rarely over $35 a month for everything. I do heat with
wood prlmarily, but I do have electric backup. But I
have a very comfortabfe littl-e house. I think if more
people had conservatj-on in mind there wouldn't be
skyrocketing electric biIIs. And we'd all be able to
afford food and medicine and the other things that are
skyrocketing every day.
Irm al-so very comfortable with a foreign
entlty, as some people caII them. Canada is a country I
actually admire greatly. And I am -- I find them to be
very enlightened in many ways. And I al-so am very
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supportive of the Paris cl-imate agreement because I do
believe 1n the majority of scientists around the world
and countries around the world who signed onto the
climate agreement. So I do believe in climate change.
I see it every day here in Idaho in l1ving here for 40
years. 104 degrees in June is a good example, from a
couple summers ago. Nothing like that had ever
happened. So I do understand the science. There have
been a lot of comments tonight that are totally untrue
in my opinion, call them alternative facts.
So my l-ocal- concerns have been 1ate1y wlth
Avista on osprey, migratory birds. They have
contributed a great deal to a very popular camera, do
osprey cam at our Memorial Eield. Many people watch it
every day. It has educated people about wildlife. I
care about wil-dlife. And Avista has been a great
partner in that.
I've recently had conversations as littl-e ago
as a month with an osprey biologist, Dr. Wayne Melquist,
who is now retired who l-ives in St. Maries, Idaho, who
was -- worked for Idaho Fish and Game for many, many
decades, also had osprey surveying up here on the Cl-ark
Fork River and Lake Pend Orei-l]-e and the Pend Oreil-l-e
River for 50 years, has banded 3500 osprey chicks for
science, taught at the University of Idaho.
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We met with the Avista manager who put up a
new nest so that the birds woul-d nest in a place where
the transmission poles just you know, took away their
home. So I find them to be responsive. I find them to
care about local- concerns, to contrj-bute to the loca1
community in various ways. Education. They sponsored
an osprey talk that Dr. Melquist did here at our Panida
Little Theater.
Because I had this experience wlth the
relj-censing team and everything that happened there
and, flor my group didn't get everythlng we wanted, but
we got a lot of what \4re wanted. It was a negotiating
process, but by consensus at the end. That doesn't
happen very often. I don't have the fears that a l-ot of
people in this room seem to have about Hydro One.
I want to just address Colstrip for a minute.
Because I believe 1n cl-imate change and because I
bel-ieve coal is not the answer. I have lived with
sofar. ft's interesting the comments about wind power.
I contrj-bute in my Avista bill every month towards their
investment in wind power wind turbines.
I know because of my work wlth native peoples
how much damage has been done in Colstri-p, how much
suffering and sacrifice Indian tribes in that area have
endured and incurred because of Colstrip. It needs to
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be shut down. And other compani-es are pulling out. And
Avista with Hydro One's support would do the same. And
it needs to happen.
So for those reasons let me see if there's
anything el-se I wanted to add because I know several
people have tal-ked a very long time. I just thlnk that
the support of the community will continue, the
invol-vement of the l-ocal- people wil-l- contj-nue under this
merger. And I bel-ieve Avista when they say we're going
to do what we say we're going to do because Irve had
that experience for 20 years. And but, you know, I
do believe in climate change. I do believe that
Colstrip needs to be phased out. And I do believe that
Canada is an enlj-ghtened country. There are many
countrj-es that invest in our industries j-n America every
day.
So thank you for
I
t
you weighing my
your listening. And
comments seriously.
I
Thankappreclate
you -
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments.
Let's cal-l- now Kathleen Clayton.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MS. CLAYTON: I do.
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MR. KLE]N:
your last name.
MS. CLAYTON:
MR. KLEIN:
MS. CLAYTON:
83860.
MS. CLAYTON: I do
Please state your name and spell
Kathleen Clayton, C-1-a-y-t-o-n.
And what's your address?
!64 Maria Pla Lane, Sagle, Idaho
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista cusLomer?
MS. CLAYTON: Yes.
MR. KLEIN: PIease
to sell- our power
I do Iike Canada,
live there. So I
go ahead.
not feel that it is right
foreign private company.
reaIly liked Canada I would
there.
source to a
yes. If I
don't live
We live in the United States. And selling our
power company to a foreign company is just as devious as
selling uranium to Russia. Itrs not fair for the
ratepayers to have no say in the decision. If the sale
goes through, I think we should switch to Northern
Lights or go off the grid. I feel that strongly about
it. Itrs something that we have no say about except to
talk to you and say what the way we feel.
Apparently it's a case of fol-l-ow the money.
And if f was one of those 13 people and being offered
$53,000 (sic), I think they shoul-d give that money back
to the ratepayers. I think there is a possibility of
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Canada having control over the Columbia River and our
dams. And any country that unj-tes its power source is
doomed.
In history you study the Roman Empire. And
one of the reasons for the collapse of the Roman Empire
j-s they they didn't have any more sl-aves. When they
conquered a country they'd get sl-aves, and after I7
years they'd let them go. And they stopped conquering
so they didn't have any more slaves. That was their
power source.
Our power source is electricity, and we're
pretty darn helpless without it. But if we have to go
off the grid, we're going to do it. And the economy of
Idaho can't take hlgher rates because we have a qulrky
thing up here that wages have not gone up. We may have
ful-I employment, but we have one the l-owest wages of any
state 1n the union. And I think that's everything I
have to say.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments
this evening. Next, Brandon from Sag1e, Idaho.
MR. CRAMER: My name is Brandon Cramer.
MR. KLEIN: Would you raj-se your right do
you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to
give is the truth, the whol-e truth and nothing but the
truth?
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CRAMER: Yes, sir.
KLEIN: Brandon, could you spell your
CRAMER: ft's B-r-a-n-d-o-n. Cramer,
name.
And what's your
It's 310 River
addre s s ?
Woods Drive,
C-r-a-m-e-r.
KLE]N:
CRAMER:
Sag1e, fdaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MR. CRAMER: I am.
MR. KLEIN: Go ahead.
MR. CRAMER: I share a lot of the sentiments
that were expressed here earl-ier today. And I know that
you guys' as commissioners job primary tenets are to
make sure that, one, w€ don't incur costs associated
with this merger;.two, our rates won't go up and; three,
it's in the public interest.
It is difficult to state whether our rates
will- increase or not. f know in the settl-ement it i-s
stated that our rates will- not go up. However, there's
no one there to enforce that except for you guys. That
being said, if Hydro One states that the cost of power
has gone up, you must l-isten to them and you must take
that into account j-n your decision in future years,
beyond that five-year limitation where they say rates
MR
MR
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wil-I not increase. But there is nothing stating after
that five years what wil-l- happen. We don't know what
will happen with Avista either. However, we have a
history with Avista. We know what has happened there.
We can l-ook back at it.
Hydro One, as a partially private company, is
relatively new. Their stock has decl-ined consistently
since they had their initial IPO. Their overall
profitability has increased slightly due to significant
Canadian government deals that they've done. There 1s
nothing to state that we wil-I not also increase our
rates here as a resul-t of Hydro One's poor management
that has been experienced.
They state in their settl-ement that we wonf t
gather economies of scal-e and therefore reduce costs.
However, Avista is supposed to be managed as a sole
subsidiary, completely separate from Hydro One. I would
be very curious to know what those economies of scal-e
might be, especial-ly since Avista has primarily been in
the business of power generation, whereas Hydro One has
primarily been in the business of power distribution and
transmission. Although related, different market
segments.
As residents of Idaho we do not five in a
competitive state. We do not get a choice in who our
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power provj-der is. And we really rely on you guys as
commi-ssioners to take care of us and watch out what's
for our interest. There is nothing to state that a
foreign company has the interest of Americans, 1et alone
Idaho residents, as their primary interest. Their
primary interest today is sharehol-ders. Not to say that
Avista's is not; however, Avista is part of our
community and always has been. Hydro One has not.
Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments
this evening. Next we'l-l call- Eletcher.
MR. FLETCHER: Good evening.
MR. KLEIN: Hi. Do you swear or affirm that
the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. FLETCHER: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease state your name and speII
your l-ast name.
MR. FLETCHER: Thomas Fletcher,
F-1-e-t-c-h-e-r.
MR. KLEIN: And whatrs your address?
MR. FLETCHERz 720 Raven Lane, Careywood,
Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: And are you an Avista customer?
MR. ELETCHER: No.
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MR. KLEIN: Go ahead.
MR. FLETCHER: I dft, however, a U.S. cj-tizen.
I promise not to grandstand. And Irm opposed to the
proposition.
Much has been made of the deficit of the
U.S. the U.S. trade deficit around the world in
recent weeks. A few weeks back I read a articl-e in
Bloomberg News. And the economists writing the article
were attempting to assuage the senti-ments of those in
this country who feel- that our sal-es deficit is a
problem by pointing out that indeed there are countries
of the world that are actively buying U. S. assets that
more or less balance our trade deficit. Now, I came
away from reading that articl-e feeling sad. In some
small way what you're what we're proposing this
evening is to sell yet another asset of our country and
our economy.
I woul-d remind you of the concept of
deaccession. When a museum is lacking funds, they sel-l-
assets. They sell pieces of art from the museum. And
it's sad because slowly but surely the museum ceases to
exist. I strongly urge you to consider what the
long-term effects are of selling our assets. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments.
Dan Rose.
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MR. ROSE : Good even j-ng .
MR. KLEIN: Good evening. Do you swear or
affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. ROSE: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease state your name and speII
your last name.
MR. ROSE: DanieI Rose, R-o-s-e.
MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
MR. ROSE: 517 Sitting Bul-l- Road, Sandpoint,
Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MR. ROSE: I am not.
MR. KLEIN: Go ahead.
MR. ROSE: I attended the workshop meeting
that was held in Coeur d'Al-ene a couple months ago. And
Hydro One, who is sitting here, was there as well and
Matthew was also there. And it was stated at that time
that the commissioners woul-d be making the decision
ul-timately on the proposed merger. The staff had
already concluded that they were for the merger. And
this was before or during the information exchange
process. So the staff i-s wants you to vote for in
their interest to pass through this proposed merger.
I find that kind of a little bit odd, putting
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the cart before the horse. And in that process there
was discussion about Hydro One, its financial problems
in the past and where it might take them and then
eventua11y Avista as a subsidiary into the future. And
it was discussed that there is and it was quoted in
this way that evening a golden shareholder. If I'm
incorrect, please tel1 me that I'm i-ncorrect. Gol-den
sharehol-der. I'd l-ike to know who the golden
sharehol-der is. We have not ever been told that. To
this date, I believe, it is still unknown.
My investigation into this could find that
Gol-den Share is a Chinese company. And they are in the
business of backing these type of mergers. And when the
primary goes bankrupt, they end up owning the whole kit
and caboodle. I don't know if it was misrepresented
that the golden shareholder is Golden Share. But it
seems very odd that we can't get that name of the
company who will be the the company entity that
takes over should Hydro One go bankrupt.
I am very concerned that that information,
that one piece of information, which is critical- to the
Iongevity of any entity that eventuafly takes ownership
of Avista be known and it not be another country in the
background who is willing to take our power source.
I know Hydro One is a transmission and
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distribution company and now looking to expand lnto the
production area by acquiring Avista. I real1y do
believe that if your staff is telling you that this
thing should go through and they can't tel-l us who that
golden shareholder or who that entity is that is
identified, or to the date and time unidentified, we
can't go through with this any further. And that rel-ies
on you commj-ssioners. Either we're being tol-d the truth
in f ull- dj-sclosure or we' re not. And it appears that
we're not. And if that's the case, I would suggest that
your staff's recommendation be disregarded. I
appreci-ate your time. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments.
That concludes our list of those who had
signed up to testify. If there are others who still
wish to testlfy this evenj-ng, af you'd like to raise
your hand and we'II try to bring you up. And for those
of you who do want to testify, if you could move closer
up to the front so we don't miss you. And why don't we
start right here.
MR. KLEfN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MS. SCOTT: Yes, I do.
MR. KLEIN: And wou1d you please state your
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name and spell your last name.
MS. SCOTT: Heather Scott, S-c-o-t-t.
MR. KLEIN: And what's your address?
MS. SCOTT : 21097 Highway 47, Bl-anchard.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MS. SCOTT: I am an Avista customer.
MR. KLEIN: Please go ahead.
MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
Thank you for coming up here tonight. And I
do have some concerns, and Irm hoping that a1l- these
comments you hear tonight you will realIy take them into
consideration and rea1ly investigate some of these
concerns before you make your final decision. I
understand the predicament you're in and the power you
hold. And I'm guessing that's pretty weighty on your
shoulders. And I do understand you are an appointed
positlon. And that being said, I'm just going to share
some of my concerns.
So one of my big concerns is the advancement
of Canada's green energy policies with wind and solar
and the ellmination of coal-. V{hether we want to believe
it or not, coal is a bi-g part of Avistars current it
is a part of how they produce power. And so when we
take out part of what they've already got golng onr it's
hard to guarantee that the price is not going to go up
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when we go to more expensive wind or sol-ar power
generation.
Another concern f have is once this merger
goes through, we wil-I not have much of a say. We as
citizens, w€ as ratepayers, our only connection to this
company will be through three appointed people. And I
just think that that removes the power of the citizens
just further away when it comes to decision making. So
that's another one of my concerns.
Another concern is was brought up earlj-er
1s that this is a failing company. Hydro One is in
bankrupt. Their infrastructure is falling apart. And
f rm asking the commi-ssion that when you make this
decision you realJ-y j-nvestigate what this merger is
going to l-ook like. When we have a failing company
buying a company that may have some debt, a lot of money
changing hands, there's more to this picture I think
than what we're seeing. And I think maybe some of that
is coming out today.
The golden share provisj-on to protect
ratepayers where the golden share has the ability to
vote al-l- outstanding shares and put the company into
vol-untary bankruptcy. This is huge if if you're
going to be making a decision and you don't even know
who the players are. Because they are a player
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according to the agreement. So I'm hoping that you as a
commission do your research and understand who that is
and come back to the people and assure us that that's
not going to be a problem. Thls is a big concern.
So when radical leftists and environmentalists
are all for somethj-ng, it kind of raised some red flags
for me. And so when I got on a certaj-n website today
and I started looking at the successes that one of
the one of the groups who's invol-ved in the lawsuit
has brought up, I just wanted to share the concerns I
have with it.
Replacing fossil fuel-s with conservation and
clean energy. ftrs a concern to me, like I mentioned
before, to take coal out of the equation. I have heard
and I haven't confirmed but this is going to put a small
town j-n Montana completely out of business. Now, those
are our nelghbors, and so that's a concern. So to my
understanding this coal- plant that was going to be
cl-osed down in 2031 is now going to be accel-erated to
202'1. That being said, the way they're doing that is
from tax from money col-lected in rates. So those are
rates from citizens or from ratepayers that they've
coll-ected more money than they should have. So instead
of returning that back to the shareholders (sic), what
they're golng to do is they're going to reroute that
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money to pay off this coal- plant and to decommission it
sooner. That's a concern because that money should go
back to the shareholders (sic).
The other concern is there's many. But
so j-nvestment of the $5.3 miflion over ten years 1n a
new they're calling them conservation programs in
north Idaho. This group has caused major grief in our
county who' s going to who's invol-ved and is on
this this board, actually a stakeholder in this
group. I'm hoping that there's some citizen
stakehol-ders in this group. I'm not aware of how it was
appointed, and I had a I just got this information
today. But to put $5.3 mill-ion back into our area
through a radical environmental group may not be Iooking
out for the best interest of Idaho citlzens in north
Idaho. And so I'm hoping that you will rea11y look into
what that money's going to be used for and bring that
into your decision.
Let t s see. There' s one more oh. So
another thing is the electrification of cars. And so
now we're going to be it's the most important thing
we can do to protect Idaho's l-ocal- air quality. Wel1, I
don't know if Idaho believes that that's the most
important thing to do for Idaho to protect Idaho's air
quality. But now there's going to be a l-ot of money.
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So a1I this money is getting paid out. I donrt know how
you can't raise how you're not going to raise rates
when there's all- this nonsense money being spent on
agendas. And it's pretty clear what the agenda is, and
I think it's been brought up earl-ier.
Okay. Irm going to move on to a few more
concerns and then wrap it up. I have a concern and
I'm hoping you w111 research this is will- the
ratepayers have to pay off any of the current debts from
Hydro One? I'm concerned about the 13 top officials of
Avista will be getting over $50 million. T'm concerned
that Hydro One owns a nuclear power p1ant. And will the
cost of shutting its plant down be passed onto U.S.
ratepayers? I'm concerned on how this wil-l- affect the
Col-umbia River Treaty and will it give Canada a blgger
seat at the table and what that looks l-lke. And I'm
hoping you as a board will investj-gate that fulJ-y
because that's long-term thinklng.
I'm concerned with some of the comments made
by officiaLs in Canada saying that once this acquisltion
becomes permanent they basical-1y will have control-.
Thatrs come out from public official-s in Canada. I hope
you l-ook lnto al-l that before making your decision.
I've got one more thing somewhere if f can
find it. It's no secret to us up here the direction our
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executive branch has been headed over the past few years
when it comes to climate nonsense and the gravy-train
party. But I truly bel-ieve you guys can really stand up
for the people and really look in depth at this decision
and maybe not be intimidated. You could reaI1y be the
heroes of Idaho if you look out for the people. And f'm
hoping you know, the little guys here are the ones
that you live with every day. f mean, they can't take
you out to fancy dinners. They can't wine and dine you.
But we are the people of Idaho. And we're just hoping
that you will l-ook out for that and l-ook into depth and
rea1ly spend the time. And f appreciate you coming up
here to take our comments. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you for your comments
this evening. I believe, sir, you were next. We'l-I
have you move up to the podium. Then if I'm not
mistaken, you in the front row are following. Thank
you.
MR. KLEIN: Raise your ri ght hand. Do you
you're about to giveswear or affirm that the testimony
1s the truth, the whole truth and
MR. JACK KLEIN: I do.
nothing but the truth?
t
MR.
and spelI your
MR.
KLE]N:
last
Would you please state your name
name.
JACK KLEIN: Yes. My name ls Jack K1ein,
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K-l-e-i-n. I reside at 294 West Green Pines Road, Hope,
Idaho.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MR. JACK KLEIN: Yes, I am.
MR. KLEIN: Go ahead.
MR. JACK KLEIN: Now, for the past 25 years or
so f've served my country in uniform and then to come
home and find out that a service that is heavily
depended on by the citizens of this state is going to be
sotd to a foreign entity. That's not the thlng that I
signed up for to serve my country to do.
Our -- my main goal was to protect this
country by every means availabl-e and that was voting or
fighting. I've done the best I coul-d. And I just
implore you to think about this. Think of the citizens
of this state and not what it's going to benefit
somebody else down the road.
Yes, Avj-sta's probably done very great things
f or this communi-ty over the l-ast years. But board
chairmanships and members of the board change as often
as governments do and you cannot depend on them to
continue to do the same things. So if you reaI1y want
to thank me for the service to my country and to you,
please consider this. Do not let this go through.
Thank you.I
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MR. KJELLANDER: And thank you for your
comments. And I believe, sir, you were next.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. JAMES: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Please state your name and spe11
your last name.
MR. JAMES: Randy James, J-a-m-e-s. 2772
Winchester Way, Sandpoint, Idaho. Been an Avista
customer for 45 years. I'm opposed to this merger.
frve heard several reasons tonight. Some
enlightening facts. One that it coul-d be a felony,
which seems to me would stop the whol-e thing right
there. A1so, lots of things for you fofks to consider.
But there ought to be 50 mil-l-ion reasons to consider not
to al-low this to go through. Thank you for your time.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. And was there
anyone else? Ma'am, if you would l-ike to step up to the
podium.
MR. KLEIN: Do you swear or affirm that the
testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth?
MS. OLDEIELD: I do.
MR. KLEIN: Pl-ease state your name and spell
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your last name.
MS. OLDFIELD: Sharon OIdfield,
O-1-d-f-i-e-1-d. 1036 Park Avenue in Sandpoint.
MR. KLEIN: Are you an Avista customer?
MS. OLDFIELD: I just wanted to express the
concerns that have been already expressed. So I won't
go into it too far. But I read on your site or one of
the sites that I researched, and it said that very
proudly that rates were going to hol-d when you made
this this transfer, that the Trump taxes were going
to help with that, that you were abl-e to redo where you
put the money. Well, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy
feeling about the rates.
I reaIIy fear that thatrs going to be
something that wil-l- happen, especJ-a11y when you're
forcing us to go to other energy sources that we're not
ready to go to yet because we don't even have storage
for wind wind energy or other energies that we're
trying to use. It will- get there. We're working at
getting there. But I think this is too soon. And I
think you're forcing the issue. And I don't see
anything that will happen other than the rates will go
up.
MR. KJELLANDER:Thank you
woufd like
for your comments.
Is there anyone efse who to testify? Sir, is
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this your second go-around?
MR. HODGE: Yeah. Is that okay?
MR. KJELLANDER: Yeah . I ' l-l- go ahead and
allow it. But my hope is that we don't start a trend.
MR. HODGE: Sorry if I'm making this rough on
you.
MR. KJELLANDER: No. That's fine. We're here
and
MR. HODGE: I would just like to do you
need my name again? I've been here already.
MR. KLEIN: If you could give your name,
that's great.
MR. HODGE: Lewis Hodge.
MR. KLEIN : Okay. You ' re stil-1 sworn .
MR. HODGE: Okay. I just woul-d l-ike you
commissioners to consider that if the decision here is
in favor of this, in favor of these people and their
friends and family and everybody in Idaho, then I guess
it's good everywhere. How would you feel- if the entire
power and the power generation industry was owned by
foreign countries that are this hostil-e to the United
States? There is no country that is hated more than the
United States. And this industry is basic to Ij-ving, to
the economy. Everything about this country revolves
around this. Just think about it, fellas. That's all- I
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can say. Thank you.
MR. KJELLANDER: Thank you. And, again, w€
appreciate your attendance this evening and your
participation as it relates to developing a record for
this case. We also greatly do appreciate the fact that
you showed up this evening. I know there are a 1ot of
things that get in the way of participating in hearings
l-1ke this. And so we greatly appreciate the fact that
you took the time away from other activities to come and
provide your comments this eveni-ng. I can assure you
that there are times we go out and do public hearings
and we see no one show up. So this is actually very
encouraging that we have a good group tonight and that
your thoughts were actually thoughtful as wel-1 as
helping us develop that fu11y developed record.
The next phase of this proceeding is a public
hearing j-n Coeur d'Al-ene. That will be tomorrow
evening. And so with that I want to thank you again for
your help in developing a record. And we are adjourned.
(Whereupon, the public hearing was
adjourned at 'l:32 p.m. )
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REPORTER' S CERTIFICATE
I, Patricia L. Pull-o, Certified Shorthand
Reporter, do hereby certify:
That the foregoing proceedings were taken
before me at the time and place therej-n set forth, at
which time any wj-tnesses were placed under oath;
That the testi-mony and all objections made
were recorded stenographically by me and were thereafter
transcribed by me or under my direction;
That the foregoing is a true and correct
record of al-I testimony given, to the best of my
ability;
That I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or of any of the parties, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand and seal this 25th day of June, 2078.
R 5Notary Publ-ic
816 Sherman Avenue, Suite 7
Coeur d'Alene, ID 83814
My Commission Expires 7L/13/2078.
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www.mmcourt.com Public Hearing
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www.mmcourt.com Public Hearing 6/t3l2OLB
9
3
-Fh fi,u J*fe /f oE,<trac.s {.{
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o Joanna flimmons, Ont.) expecting a new baby: lt costs S8@ per month for electricfi in hertrailer home.r 58,000 households disconnected due to high cost of electricity; disconnects grew 19% in 3 years.o Disconnects by HydroOne continue just befiore Christmas as winter sets in.o RuralOntarians go "off-grid', using backyard generators, cook on BBQs.o Dinelle's Grocery in Echo Bay shuts all reftigerated food section, coolers, freezers, as electricity costs too much
to operate compressors; must close Zl3rdsof store.o Parents must choose: feed kids or pay electric bill.o "Electric bill takes one-hatf of my monthly tak*'home pay''-o Mayor Lynn Watson (Echo Bay Ont.): "seniors can't afford electricity; rates are killing small business".o Dorothy \Atlnne (Moosonee, Ont.): "l need to count pennies to pay electric. We don't eat mea! fruits, turn off
all the liehts, for money to pay for electricitf; Customen 'my electric bill is S880/mo even using only 3 (x)ms.o United Way Exec. Dir. Francesca Dobbin: "Disconneds ore totolly o crisis; HydroOne bills forcing families to
abandon homes os eledric is larger than mortgoge; we had 3,0AO cases of E. coli some yedrs dgo and that wos o
crisis, while Energy Minister soys 58,M disconnects ore not o crisis".r 392,963 Ontarians in "electric arrears" with debt growing4$g6; cannot afford to pay electric charges (2015).o Olobal odjustment charge is70P6 of electric bills {a convenient method to hide the real costs of Ontario's
sweetheart renewable deals, closing coal plants); energy use & otherfees 3096 of bilts.o Ontarians overpaid S37 billion in electric charges.
Whv Not Hvdro One:
Hydro One's electric in Ontario (2015) is 29.9 cents/ kwhr; 35 cents per kwhr (2016) , 460% higher than Avista,
1500% higher than Douglas County or Chelan County PUDs 2.39 c/ kwhr, but is increasing rates $289 more(2019).
Hydro One's outages are 24% more frequent and 30% longer; charges more for systems in decline, is
unresponsive to 10,000 customer complaints about high cost, is gaming the Energy Board to get more money, is
inefficient with no incentive to become productive, its capital budgets are not benchmarked, and with cost
overruns buih into budgets.
Its 52.25 billion conservation effort is a waste of money (Fraser lnstitute), reducing CO2 only 0.0003%.
FACT SHEET - WHY STOP HYDRO ONE AND OiITARIdS CONTROL OF AVISTA1
Pre-2000 Ontario:o Boasts the most advanced and efficient fleet of coal-ftred electric generating fleet on continent.r Ontario electric costs 1-2-3 cents per kwhr.o Maurice Strong Canadian, high school dropout.-.o Dreams up global warming idea, as CEO of Ontario Hydro, UN insider, Chairman of UN's Climate Summit in
Rio de Janeiro to convince goy'ts. of climate change, end use of fossil fuels, claims climate catastrophe to
facilitate global go\rernance by UN; receives 51 M kickback in Sadam Hussein's "Oil for Food'scandah
assists N. Korea's nuclear ambitions; Ontarians label him "Father of America's Destruction'.o began reorganizing in 1990s; Hydroone created in 2(D2.o Creates Chicago Climate Exchange mentoring Barack Obama, Al 6ore, a market for world to pay carbon
indulgences; Barack Obama: "under my plon eledrictty rates will necessorily skyrockef .
Post-20fi) Ontario: {Green Enersv Act. "Round 1')o Ontario politicians are terrified of Carbon Dioxide, so what do they do? Pass the Green Energy Act, 2009; codifies
Maurice Strongis dream of global warming.o Shuttle all coal plants, make huge expenditures for nuclear, yet convert to renewables while ignorant of cost.r Electricity cost rising fasterthan anywhere in North America; off-peak rates, the cheapest rates, rose L49%-
155% in 10 years about I times faster than the !7.8% rise in inflation; rates rose 25% just from 2015-2015.o SBn 2O-year energy deals that costs 400% more for wind and 1,000% more for solar, or $gZ billion above
market-priced electricity and 5137 billion to 2032; Green Energy Act Round l total cost 5172 B.o Guarantees renevrrables access to electric grid, pay $13S/mwhr,
to produce electricity without limit.o Build 237 wind farms (tens of thousands of wind turbines) on all
shores of 4 Great Lakes bordering Ontario.o 2017:. So much electricity, dumping to New York, Quebec at 2%
of cost; 98% paid by outraged Ontariant bry demonstrations.
a
a
o
a
\
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r Their distribution system is in considerable disrepair, least reliable in all of Canada's. Distribution is their business.
o Since 2015 a quasi-private company, shields them from FOIA requests, from investigations by watchdogs to resohe
complaints and prevents Auditor Generalto conduct financial accountability.
r HydroOne run by promise-them-anything governments whose leaderare
focused on getting re-elected.
o lts Smart meter rollout cost 52 B, is not working, with benefits unrealized.
o Developers knew-MPP says: 'the smoking gun"-that to construct wind
turbines in Chatham, 40 mi east of Detroit would contaminate nearby active
wells2. C-K farmer Marc St. Pierre: "toxic sludge water is only usefulfor
bathing and toilets-...there's no way it's safe to drinK3.
The Pain Accelerates - MPP savs Ontario's Green Enerev Act, "Round 2" is Coming Here
r Cap-and-Trade (C&T) of carbon credits begins in earnest, 2Ot6; a 'sham" program, as it is only about 'trading credits"
and no concern for GHG emissions though so rhetorically-claimed by politicians.
o Force reducing 6HG emissions by 80% below 1990 levels; acquiring Avista assures Hydro0ne meets 2020 target.o Round 2 compels Canadian companies to raid U.S. utility companies seeking "clean power" sources to satisfo C&T.
o Acquisitions totalSgg g+ in two year period, including Avista at 56.7 B; Ten more U.5. utilities remain as targets.
o HydroOne's wooden nickelfor Avista saves it 58 B otherwise due to buy carbon credits from Chicago or other C.Exc.
and they could now own 13 hydroelectric dams and 374000 Avista customers to shield their misfortunes.t Member of Provinciol Parliament (MPP, Doiene Vernile ol Kitchener: Ontarlo
"will sell off 6O% of Hydroone lPO, but maintain control" "control Hydroone's
board", "appoint directors, maintain veto power, nominating authority to its
subsidiaries", "maintain regulatory control", "set rates", to "unlock assets to
build Ontario's infiastructure"l. Wilt Ontario set Avista's rates?-She says so.o Enerw Ministry POll Fair Hydro Plan Auditor General: this band-aid mirage
of a plan reduces electric rates from 36to 27 cents/kwhr at expense of future electric customers; it saves $18.4
B today by borrowing S21 B but cost could be S3O B if interest rates rise, but future customers will pay $tt.O g,
an amount entirely unknown for the save- now-pdy-more-later programt (see illustration of electric rates).
HOW Cap-and-Trade damages people, whote economieq whole countries, and whole societies6:o C&T forces electric rates higher, estimated to add Round 2 cost of $3,247 per household in Ontario, not including
cost of Canada-wide Ss0/tonne tax on carbon dioxide, all of this added to Round 1 costs.o C&T costs are invisible, not seen on electric bills, camouflaged in higher costs of all consumer goods.
o C&T is an illusion, a massive shell game, a massive energy tax in disguise.o C&T transfers important economic decisions from private to government, subordinates to Central Planning (i.e.
Venezuela, Cuba, N. Korea, China, FSU).
o C&T is all about artificial scarcity of fuels by government fiat, without considering supply and demand. .o C&T ("Waxman-Markey C&T bilf') was rejected by U.S. Senate in 20097 would add S20,000/year per customer in
energy costs, cause 1.14 million jobs lost per year, including green jobs, decrease GDP by 5393 B per year, and
a
o
o
a
o
using EPA's valuation of statistical life methodology result in 39,300 deaths per year,
with larger rates of death in the high risk low income groups.
o C&T increases energy costs: For each 10% reduction in 6HG's, it disproportionately
reduces incomes by 10% for lower quartile earners; a reduction of 80% by 2050 in
Ontario or 85% (Pres. Obama's Clean Power Plan; UN' Paris Agreement) willsurely kill.o C&T harms energy security by eroding our ability to produce domestic energy, forcing
importing fuels, causes job losses.
o C&T forces the U.S. to forgo its current highest GDP, highest standard of living, highest
life expectancy, increasing incomes, highest technological outpu! high agricultural
out.... due to our large use of fossil fuels, but at what cost?o C&T produces no impact on climate, since CO2 is unrelated to temperature or climate.o Gov. lnslee wants C&T and Carbon taxes to create a "predictable climate" unaware that70% of tax's o tax on oin
lnslee's book "Apollo Project" to re-engineer energy sources misrepresents climate with 29 errors in chapter 1.
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