HomeMy WebLinkAbout20240423Show Cause Hearing Volume I.pdf PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
SAINT MARIES RIVER RAILROAD
April 11 , 2024
ND
DEPOIDAHO
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Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
BEFORE THE IDAHO PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION
IN THE MATTER OF ST MARIES ) CASE NO.
RIVER RAILROAD COMPANY ' S ) SMR-R-24-01
FAILURE TO PAY ITS 2023 )
ASSESSMENT FEES AND PROMPTLY ) ORDER TO SHOW
COMPLY WITH ORDER TO SHOW ) CAUSE
STATUTORY MANDATES )
NOTICE OF HEARING
ORDER NO . 36120
BEFORE
COMMISSIONER PRESIDENT ERIC ANDERSON
COMMISSIONER EDWARD LODGE
COMMISSIONER JOHN HAMMOND, JR. (Presiding)
PLACE : Commission Hearing Room
11331 West Chinden Blvd.
Building 8, Suite 201-A
Boise, Idaho
DATE : April 11, 2024
VOLUME I - Pages 1 - 29
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
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For Staff:
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6 Michael Duvall
Deputy Attorney General, IPUC
7 11331 West Chinden Blvd.
Building 8, Suite 201-A
8 Boise, Idaho 83720-0074
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For St Maries River Railroad:
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Michael Wayne Williams
14 President of St . Maries River Railroad
10100 N Ambassador Dr . , Suite 105
15 Kansas City, Missouri 64153
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APPEARANCES
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
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1 I N D E X
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3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
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5 Nancy Ashcraft Mr. Duvall (Direct) 7
Mr. Williams (Cross) 17
6 Commissioner Anderson 20
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8 Michael Williams Mr. Duvall (Direct) 22
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APPEARANCES
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
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1 E X H I B I T S
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3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
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5 FOR THE STAFF:
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7 1 . Affidavit of Nancy Ashcraft Premarked
Admitted 8
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2 . Idaho PUC Statement Premarked
10 Admitted 11
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EXHIBITS
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 5
1 BOISE, IDAHO, THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024, 11 : 05 A.M.
2
3 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Good morning.
4 This is the time and place for a show cause
5 hearing in Case No . SMR-R-24-01, also referred to
6 as in the matter of St Maries River Railroad
7 Company' s failure to pay its 2023 assessment fees
8 and promptly comply with statutory mandates .
9 The purpose of this hearing is to allow
10 the company an opportunity to show cause why it
11 should not be required to immediately pay the
12 entire outstanding balance for 2023 annual fees,
13 plus interest, in the amount of $6, 273 . 95; have
14 the Commission through its attorneys seek the
15 imposition of civil penalties under Idaho Code
16 61-706 of up to $2, 000 for each and every offense;
17 to have the Commission ' s attorneys sue in district
18 court to enforce the determination of the
19 Commission consistent with Idaho Code 61-705,
20 61-706, and 61-1005 .
21 My name is John Hammond. I am the Chair
22 of today' s proceedings . And I am joined by
23 Commission President Eric Anderson to my right .
24 A show cause order was issued by this
25 Commission on March 26, 2024 . The order stated
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 6
1 failure to pay claims against the company. This
2 hearing is being held in order to allow the
3 company an opportunity to address the claims
4 against it .
5 The transcript of this proceeding will be
6 added to the underlying record in this case . The
7 Commissioners will review the facts and evidence
8 in the record to make its final decision. We do
9 use a court reporter for these hearings and that
10 reporter will create an official transcript for
11 our record.
12 As an initial matter, let ' s document, for
13 purposes of the record, the parties present and
14 their counsel . We can begin with the Commission
15 Staff.
16 MR. DUVALL: Thank you. Michael Duvall
17 representing Commission Staff.
18 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : And for the
19 Railroad, St Maries River Railroad Company?
20 MR. WILLIAMS : Mike Williams .
21 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Can you speak
22 into the mic.
23 MR. WILLIAMS : Mike Williams . I 'm sorry.
24 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : No worries .
25 Thank you very much, sir. Is there anybody else
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 7
1 in the hearing room that needs to be identified?
2 I don ' t believe so .
3 With that, I will turn it over to the
4 parties to see if there are any witnesses that
5 need to be called in this matter . I ' ll start with
6 Commission Staff .
7 MR. DUVALL: Commission Staff would call
8 Nancy Ashcraft to the stand.
9
10 NANCY ASHCRAFT,
11 produced at the instance of Idaho PUC, having been
12 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
13 follows :
14
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MS . ASHCRAFT :
17 Q. Thank you. Ms . Ashcraft, please state
18 your name and spell your first and last name for
19 the record, please.
20 A. My name is Nancy Ashcraft . That ' s
21 N-A-N-C-Y, A-S-H-C-RA-F-T .
22 Q. And are you the same Nancy Ashcraft that
23 filed an affidavit in this case with an Exhibit A
24 attached?
25 A. Yes .
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 8
1 Q. Do you have any corrections or
2 modifications to your filed affidavit or its
3 accompanying exhibit?
4 A. No, I do not .
5 Q. If I were to ask you today questions
6 relative to that affidavit, would the answers be
7 consistent with the information contained in the
8 affidavit?
9 A. Yes, they would.
10 MR. DUVALL: Mr. Chair, I would now move
11 to spread the affidavit with its accompanying
12 Exhibit A on the record as if read labeled
13 Exhibit 1 .
14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Any
15 objection? So admitted.
16 (Exhibit 1 admitted. )
17 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, what is
18 your role at the Commission?
19 A. I 'm the financial specialist senior .
20 Q. And what is the process for the company
21 paying its assessment fees?
22 A. In April of each year, the public
23 utilities commission sets an assessment fee
24 amount . We would then turn around and invoice
25 each utility before May 1st of every year.
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 9
1 By May 15th of every year, half of that
2 assessment would be due and the second half would
3 be due on November 15th.
4 Q. Okay. And before a company is assessed,
5 does the company submit to the Commission a GIOR?
6 And what is that?
7 A. Each year around the end of February and
8 prior to April 1st, each utility must submit their
9 gross intrastate operating revenue to the
10 Commission . This is what we use to calculate the
11 assessment fees .
12 Q. Thank you. And relative to your
13 affidavit and the information contained therein,
14 what did your affidavit say the company owes for
15 its 2023 assessment fees and accrued interest?
16 A. The assessment fee for 2023 was
17 $6, 117 . 91 . And at that point, there was --
18 Q. I ' ll rephrase . We' ll get to the interest
19 later.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. But the assessment fee was what, again?
22 A. $6, 117 . 91 .
23 Q. Thank you. And does interest accrue at
24 late payment?
25 A. Yes, it does . Per Idaho Code, it accrues
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 10
COL OQUY
1 at six percent per annum.
2 Q. Thank you. In your affidavit, you have a
3 letter attached. Did your letter make the company
4 aware of the possibility for a show cause hearing
5 and the potential levy of fines or penalties in
6 this case for noncompliance?
7 A. Yes, it did.
8 Q. Thank you. And Ms. Ashcraft, do you
9 recognize this document?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 MR. DUVALL: I would like to spread to
12 the record the document that I handed Ms . Ashcraft
13 labeled Exhibit 2 .
14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : What is
15 Exhibit 2? I don't have a copy of that.
16 MR. DUVALL: Thank you.
17 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : What is Exhibit 2,
18 Ms. Ashcraft?
19 A. Exhibit 2 is a statement prepared
20 yesterday of all assessment and payments going
21 back to 2016.
22 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : And a
23 question in aid of clarification here: Is that
24 assessment related to St Maries Railroad?
25 THE WITNESS: Correct.
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 11
1 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Or that
2 statement? Excuse me .
3 THE WITNESS : That statement is for
4 St Maries River Railroad.
5 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Thank you.
6 Do you have copies of that, Mr. Duvall?
7 MR. DUVALL: I do .
8 (Documents exchanged. )
9 MR. DUVALL: Mr. Chair, I would move to
10 spread the document I just handed to the
11 Commission as Exhibit 2 on the record.
12 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Any
13 objection, Mr. Williams?
14 MR. WILLIAMS : No .
15 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Commissioner
16 Anderson? Exhibit 2 will be admitted into the
17 record.
18 MR. DUVALL: Thank you.
19 (Exhibit 2 admitted. )
20 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, Exhibit 2
21 has a lot of numbers on it. Could you tell us
22 generally what this document is and what the
23 highlighted dates are specifically?
24 A. This is a statement of the account for St
25 Maries River Railroad that goes back to 2016 . It
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 12
1 shows the invoice for assessment plus the date of
2 the payments for each year .
3 Q. Thank you. And what is the highlighted
4 material on Exhibit 2?
5 A. The highlighted areas are the payment
6 dates for the assessment for each year .
7 Q. Okay. And did St Maries Railroad, based
8 off of this document, timely pay its assessment
9 fees in 2017?
10 A. No, they did not .
11 Q. When did they pay those assessment fees?
12 A. Those fees were paid on July 24, 2017 .
13 Q. So they were paid in July. When was the
14 first installment due?
15 A. The first installment was due on
16 May 15th.
17 Q. Thank you. And what about for 2018? Did
18 the company timely pay its assessment fees in
19 2018?
20 A. No, they did not .
21 Q. When was the payment received?
22 A. The payment was received on July 17,
23 2019 .
24 Q. Thank you. And what about for 2019? Did
25 the company pay on time at that time?
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 13
1 A. No, they did not . They paid on
2 November 4, 2019 .
3 Q. And in 2019, did the Commission take any
4 action relative to the company to your knowledge?
5 A. Yes . A show cause order was filed in
6 2019 .
7 Q. And was the show cause hearing held?
8 A. No . The company paid their fees at that
9 time .
10 Q. They paid them late?
11 A. Before the hearing date .
12 Q. Okay. And did they pay those fees late?
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. And what about in 2020? Did the company
15 pay its assessment fees on time?
16 A. No, they did not .
17 Q. When did they pay their assessment fees?
18 A. They paid on June 26, 2020 .
19 Q. And it appears from 2021 that they paid
20 it on time; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct .
22 Q. And what about for 2022? Did the company
23 pay its assessment fees on time?
24 A. They did not . They paid on July 5, 2022 .
25 Q. And just to reiterate for 2023, have we
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 14
1 received the company' s assessment fees?
2 A. We have not .
3 Q. Thank you. Ms . Ashcraft, do you believe
4 that the company' s behavior is indicative of a
5 general pattern?
6 A. Yes, I do .
7 Q. And to your knowledge, is Mr. Williams
8 the president of St Maries Railroad?
9 A. Based on the filing to the Idaho
10 Secretary of State, he is the president of the
11 company, yes .
12 Q. Thank you. And how many other companies,
13 railroad companies are you aware of that
14 Mr. Williams is involved with that have
15 consecutive issues of late payments dating back to
16 2016 or 2017?
17 A. There are no other railroads other --
18 well, there was one, Western Idaho . And at the
19 time, there was a disagreement between Washington
20 Idaho Railway and a third party of who was the
21 president of the company at that time . Since that
22 time, the third company has paid current all
23 assessment fees .
24 Q. Okay. And was Mr. Williams at all
25 involved with those companies, either of those?
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 15
1 A. According to the secretary of state, it
2 was going back and forth between Mr. Williams and
3 a third party of who was the president of the
4 Washington Idaho Railroad.
5 Q. Okay. So all companies that Mr. Williams
6 doesn' t have any attachment to whatsoever, is
7 there any pattern of late payment that we can see?
8 A. No .
9 Q. Thank you. So in your affidavit, you
10 sent a letter to the company via certified mail on
11 December 5 , 2023 . And based off of that letter,
12 would it be correct to say that the company has
13 not paid its assessment fees despite knowing for
14 months the potential for this hearing and
15 associated penalties with respect to the
16 Commission?
17 A. Correct .
18 Q. Thank you. And could you provide just --
19 some of this has been discussed previously -- but
20 a quick overview of -- in relation to this company
21 for its assessment fees for 2023, what
22 correspondence were received when? So starting
23 with the company' s submission of its GIOR
24 statement?
25 A. The GIOR statement was received on, I
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 16
1 believe --
2 Q. I 'm sorry, I asked that question poorly.
3 Did the company receive -- did the company submit
4 a GIOR statement?
5 A. Yes, they did.
6 Q. Was the company then sent an assessment?
7 A. Yes, they were .
8 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Can I
9 interject here . I 'm not sure -- you mentioned it,
10 but since we have a separate record for this case,
11 could we describe what GIOR means .
12 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, could you
13 give us that acronym and explain what the GIOR is .
14 A. GIOR is an acronym for gross intrastate
15 operating revenue .
16 Q. Thank you. And what does that report
17 outline?
18 A. That report is the revenues from the
19 company for the previous calendar year .
20 Q. Thank you. So you mentioned that the
21 company had sent its GIOR and it had been sent an
22 assessment by the Commission.
23 Has the company paid its 2023 assessment
24 fees?
25 A. No, it has not .
ASHCRAFT (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 17
1 Q. And in Exhibit 2 , which was prepared
2 yesterday, April 10 , 2024 , it outlines the
3 company' s interest for late payment. Would you
4 mind explaining, telling us what that number is as
5 of yesterday, April loth?
6 A. As of yesterday, there is a $28 . 32
7 interest fee from 2022 that has not been paid.
8 And as of March 5th, there was a $259 . 36 interest
9 charge . And from March 5th to April 10th, there
10 is another $36 . 11 .
11 MR. DUVALL: Alright . Thank you. Staff
12 has no further questions for the witness at this
13 time .
14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr . Williams,
15 do you have any questions of the witness?
16 MR. WILLIAMS : Yes .
17
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. WILLIAMS :
20 Q. Would you tell me again what the
21 definition of GIOR is?
22 A. The GIOR stands for gross intrastate
23 operating revenue .
24 Q. You' re saying intra, not inter?
25 A. Correct .
ASHCRAFT (Cr)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 18
1 Q. Okay. So these assessments to me are for
2 revenues that I generate for originating and
3 terminating freight within the State of Idaho; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Correct .
6 Q. I tell you what, I partially don' t know
7 of any freight that I originate and terminate in
8 the State of Idaho. You know, interstate, you
9 know like -- I 'm sorry.
10 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : No, that ' s
11 okay. If you have a question, that ' s fantastic, a
12 question to the witness . But if you want to
13 testify as to some explanation, then we ' ll have
14 you come and --
15 MR. WILLIAMS : No . I 'm just trying to
16 understand that, you know, because my
17 understanding, like I said, intrastate is intra,
18 what happens internally in the state, and
19 interstate is from state to state . And you know,
20 so, you know, our railroads are small . We have
21 but a handful of customers, Potlatch Corporation
22 and Stimson . I am just not aware why any railroad
23 would ship and unload in the same state . You
24 know, it ' s almost a 700-mile haul before there ' s a
25 break in savings between, you know, the need to
ASHCRAFT (Cr)
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
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1 ship by rail .
2 And I guess I just want to be sure that
3 what I 'm being billed for, you know, is proper --
4 the terminology -- so there ' s a lot of
5 difference --
6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Let me jump
7 in here again.
8 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah.
9 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Again, I
10 appreciate your explanation. And I don ' t want to
11 cut you -- if you want --
12 MR. WILLIAMS : It ' s a question. It ' s a
13 question .
14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : If you want
15 to introduce that into the record, I would love to
16 have you come up and testify as to your concern
17 about --
18 MR. WILLIAMS : Okay.
19 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. -- about how
20 you ' re billed. And so, if you do have a question,
21 fantastic . I 'm just asking --
22 MR. WILLIAMS : I 'm sorry. I 'm sorry.
23 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Yeah. I
24 think that -- I 'm not trying to prevent you. I 'm
25 just --
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
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1 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah, I 'm trying to
2 understand. I 'm sorry.
3 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. -- want it to
4 be part of the record as your witness statement .
5 Thank you. Do you have any other questions of
6 Ms . Ashcraft?
7 MR. WILLIAMS : No, sir.
8 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Okay. Do you
9 have any questions, Commission President Anderson?
10 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I do have a
11 couple of questions . So as you stated, the
12 assessment on each utility, including St Maries
13 Railroad, is calculated based off of what the
14 gross intrastate operating revenue is or has been
15 reported to the Commission?
16 THE WITNESS : Correct .
17 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And did the
18 company, St Maries Railroad itself, report its
19 gross intrastate operating revenue?
20 THE WITNESS : Yes .
21 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Those were not
22 numbers determined by staff, those revenues; they
23 were determined by the company; isn ' t that
24 correct?
25 THE WITNESS : Correct .
ASHCRAFT (Com)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 21
1 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. And so, if
2 there is a discrepancy in what is being reported,
3 that is the company' s responsibility to
4 investigate or question with Staff the accuracy of
5 those numbers; is that correct?
6 THE WITNESS : Correct . When we -- when
7 they submit their GIOR, they are self-certifying
8 that that is the revenue that was generated
9 within -- for the state, for the gross intrastate
10 operating revenue .
11 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : I don ' t have
12 any further questions . Does anybody else?
13 Mr . Williams?
14 MR. WILLIAMS : No .
15 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr . Duvall?
16 MR. DUVALL: No further questions . I
17 would like to call Mr. Williams to the stand.
18 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Thank you,
19 Ms . Ashcraft . You are excused.
20
21 MICHAEL WILLIAMS,
22 having been first duly sworn, was examined and
23 testified as follows :
24
25
ASHCRAFT (Com)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 22
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. DUVALL:
3 Q. Mr. Williams , would you please state your
4 name and spell your first and last name for the
5 record, please.
6 A. Michael Williams, M-I-C-H-A-E-L,
7 W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S .
8 Q. And are you the president or owner of St
9 Maries Railroad?
10 A. I am.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Williams . Is it correct
12 that St Maries has been generally late in paying
13 its assessment fees for most years since 2017?
14 A. I believe so .
15 Q. And could you explain to the Commission
16 why the company has a history of late payment and
17 why the company is late for its 2023 assessment?
18 A. Just error on my fault with no excuse .
19 Q. Okay. So is there any assurance that you
20 could give to the Commission that you will be
21 prompt in paying not only your 2023 assessment but
22 your upcoming 2024 assessment and future
23 assessments?
24 A. Yes, I will be prompt on that .
25 MR. DUVALL: Thank you . No further
WILLIAMS (Di)
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 23
1 questions .
2 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Do you have
3 any questions, Commission President, for
4 Mr. Williams?
5 You may continue if you have more to say
6 about any of these matters .
7 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah. You know, I just,
8 you know, have people that work under me and I
9 expect for them to do their jobs . I understand,
10 you know -- I just -- the good out of this is when
11 I go back to my office, I -- you know, the word
12 intra and inter are very close words . If you
13 listen, they almost sound like the same thing.
14 You know, it is my responsibility for my people to
15 report that correctly. And so, you know, what I
16 gain for this -- I say there ' s good in all bad.
17 But what I hope to gain from this is to take a
18 look at if my people may have done that .
19 But again, I appreciate, you know, the
20 candid remarks to pay the assessment on time
21 because it costs -- time is money. You people are
22 here . You know, there are other things, I 'm sure
23 you could be doing for the state instead of trying
24 to collect some of these bills .
25 But I can just tell you on a move-forward
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
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1 basis for me where I 'm at in my life . You know,
2 there will be a reorganization of sorts with the
3 railroads, with both of the railroads, to get
4 those railroads back to where they need to be
5 without these problems . So I guarantee you, I
6 will make this on time and I will pay a lot of
7 attention to what is going on here . So I
8 apologize for being late today. I thank you for,
9 you know, me getting a little more educated and
10 having an understanding on how things work. So I
11 thank you for your time .
12 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : So adding,
13 jumping in here, I ' d say, one thing I 'm very aware
14 of is that it takes a while -- it takes a lot to
15 get to a point where we actually have to have a
16 hearing.
17 And what I would encourage you strongly
18 to do is to reach out to Staff, Nancy,
19 Ms . Ashcraft, who is here in the front row, or to
20 anyone else that she works with in regard to this
21 matter. Silence only makes the problem worse . So
22 I would strongly encourage you to stay in contact
23 with them to make sure that there aren' t issues
24 and that everybody is on the same page moving
25 forward. When things go dark, that ' s generally
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 25
1 when it becomes a problem.
2 And so, with that, I believe at this
3 point, is there anything further? Any of you --
4 you ' re excused, Mr. Williams .
5 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: One moment .
6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Oh, I 'm
7 sorry.
8 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: With that,
9 Mr. Williams, just so I 'm clear, are you beginning
10 to develop an argument that you may not be
11 required to pay these assessments?
12 MR. WILLIAMS : No . But the way I
13 understand it is my people filled those out and so
14 that ' s my responsibility to pay it. I just want
15 to be sure on a move-forward basis that my
16 company, my employees understand the difference
17 between the two .
18 No, I don ' t dispute the payment . I have
19 the payment for you. I just, you know, want to
20 understand my people -- that because of intrastate
21 and interstate, that they are understanding what
22 they are to file . But I haven' t -- no, we filed
23 those, those reports and that ' s what we live with
24 up until now. It ' s just on a move-forward basis,
25 I want to talk to my people and be sure they know
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 26
1 the clarity between the two .
2 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Because we 've
3 all -- in the private sector we come from, we all
4 do come from originally, my staff always
5 understands that a bill has arrived and that bill
6 needs to be paid. I don ' t need to give them
7 permission to pay that bill . That bill is my
8 responsibility and I hire staff to do just that .
9 It ' s not a real convincing argument to say that
10 you 've got staff that just doesn ' t understand.
11 I 'm failing to --
12 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah. And I wasn ' t, I
13 wasn ' t saying that . What I was saying is that,
14 for me, the two words are the same . And I just
15 want to be sure that they know. That ' s all I was
16 saying. I 'm not trying to --
17 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Forgive me . I
18 wasn ' t trying to -- I wasn ' t bringing the argument
19 about the two words . I was actually talking about
20 just simply they do receive a bill . You know your
21 assessments are due and you need to give them the
22 direction to pay those . And if you don ' t have the
23 money, then you need to -- you have to develop a
24 business plan that creates that amount of money
25 for you to pay your assessments . Thank you.
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 27
1 MR. WILLIAMS : Thank you .
2 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr. Williams,
3 you are excused, unless you have anything further?
4 MR. WILLIAMS : I have the payments . Do I
5 drop them off?
6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Yeah. Why
7 don ' t we -- at the close of the hearing, you can
8 talk with Staff about that .
9 MR. WILLIAMS : Oh, sorry.
10 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Does staff
11 have any further witnesses? Any further evidence?
12 MR. DUVALL: No, Commissioner.
13 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr. Williams,
14 do you have anything further?
15 MR. WILLIAMS : I do not . And again, I
16 apologize for my lateness .
17 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Unless any
18 party or Commissioner finds that there is
19 something else that needs to be introduced or
20 added to the record prior to the Commission
21 issuing a final order in this case, this hearing
22 will be complete and we will close the record in
23 this case, that is, the case is now fully
24 submitted and the Commissioners will deliberate
25 privately and issue a final decision .
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 28
1 With that, this show cause hearing is
2 adjourned. Thank you very much, everyone .
3 (Adjourned at 11 : 28 p .m. )
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
COLLOQUY
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
Page 29
1 A U T H E N T I C A T I O N
2
3
4 This is to certify that the foregoing
5 proceedings held in the matter of St Maries River
6 Railroad Company' s failure to pay its 2023
7 assessment fees and promptly comply with statutory
8 mandates, commencing at 11 : 05 a.m. , on Thursday,
9 April 11, 2024, at the Commission Hearing Room,
10 11331 West Chinden Blvd. , Building 8, Suite 201-A,
11 Boise, Idaho, is a true and correct transcript of
12 said proceedings and the original thereof for the
13 file of the Commission.
14 6
101091u88 s,,
.•`GG0� R, �•.
15 �•'�tfTARy:�n
to••:
t
O t
16
:n UBI.XC'-N
17
.,,•�•��0��••�. Maureen Ricks
18 Certified Shorthand Reporter #671
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
AUTHENTICATION
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
16 26 A.M. April balance
Exhibits 16:25 5:25 13:18 5:1 5:1 8:22 9:8 5:12
17 26:25 accompanyin 17:2,5,9 based
EXH 1 St. 12:22 17:25 27 g areas 12:7 14:9 15:11
Maries 0411 18 27:25 8:3,11 12:5 20:13
24 18:25 account argument basis
8:13,16 19 4 11:24 25:10 26:9,18 24:1 25:15,24
EXH 2 St. 19:25 accrue arrived begin
Maries 0411 1st 4 9:23 26:5 6:14
24 8:25 9:8 13:2 accrued Ashcraft beginning
10:13,15,17,19 9:15 7:8,10,16,17,20, 25:9
11:11,16,19,20 2 5 accrues 22,25 8:17,25 behavior
12:417:1 9.25 9:2510:8,12,18, 14:4
25 11:20,25
2 5 accuracy 12:2513:25 bill
$ 10:13,15,17,19 5:2513:24 21:4 14:3,2515:25 26:5,7,20
11:11,16,19,20 15:11 acronym 16:12,2517:25 billed
$2,000 12:4 17:1 5th 16:13,14 18:25 20:6,25 19:3,20
5:16 20 17:8,9 action 21:19,25 24:19 bills
$259.36 20:25 13:4 assessed 23:24
17:8 2016 6 added 9:4 BOISE
$28 32 10:21 11:25 6:6 27:20 assessment 5:1
17:6 14:16 6 adding 5:7 8:21,23 9:2, break
$36.11 2017 6:25 24:12 11,15,16,21 18:25
17:10 12:9,1214:16 61-1005 in 10:20,2412:1,6, bringing
22:13 address 8,11,1813:15, g g
5:20
$6,117.91 6:3 17,23 14:1,23 26:18
2018
9:17,22 61-705 adjourned 15:13,21 16:6, business
$6,273.95 12:17,19 5:19 28:2,3 22,23 20:12 26:24
5:13 2019 61-706 admitted 22:13,17,21,22
12:23,2413:2,3, 5:16,20 23:20
8:15,16 11:16, C
1 6 19 assessments
2020 7 affidavit 25:1226 calculate
13:1:14,18 25:11 26:2:21,25
1 7:23 8:2,6,8,11 9:10
8:13,16 20 7 9:13,1410:2 assurance calculated
13:19 15:9 22:19
10 7:25 20:13
10:2517:2 2022 700-mile aid attached calendar
18:24 16:19
13:22,24 17:7 7:24 10:3
10t 10:23
17h 2023 Alright attachment call
5:7,12 9:15,16 17:11 15:6
11 13:25 15:11,21 8 7:7 21:17
amount attention
5:1 11:25 16:23 22:17,21 called
11:05 2024 8 5:13 8:24 26:24 24:7
7:5
5:1 5:1,2517:2 8:25 Anderson attorneys
5:14,17 candid
22:22 5:23 11:16 20:9, 23:20
11:28 10,17,2121:1 aware
28:3 21 9 25:5,8 26:2,17 10:4 14:13 case
12 21:25 18:22 24:13 5:5 6:6 7:23
annual 12:25 22 9 5:12 10:6 16:1027:21,23
13 22:25 9:25 annum B
13:25 23 10:1 certified
15:10
14 23:25 A answers back
14:25 24 Chair
8:6 10:21 11:25 5:21 8:10 11:9
15 12:12 24:25 A-S-H-C-RA- 14:15 15:2
15:25 25 F-T apologize 24:8 27:16 23:1124:4 charge 15th 25:25 7:21 bad 17:9
appears
9:1,3 12:16 13:19 23:16
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Index: $2, 000 to charge
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
civil 14:11,21,22 create Di entire 15,17,2314:1,
5:15 15:10,12,20 6:10 7:25 8:25 9:25 5:12 23 15:13,21
Claims 16:3,6,19,21,23 creates 10:25 11:25 Eric 16:24 22:13
6:1,3 20:18,23 22:16, 26:24 12:25 13:25 5:23 file
17 25:16 CROSS- 14:25 15:25 25:22
clarification company's error
's an 16:25 22:25
10:23 p y EXAMINATIO 22:18 filed
5:7 14:1,4 15:23 difference 7:23 8:2 13:5
Clarity 17:3 21:3 N 19:5 25:16 evidence 25.22
26:1 complete 17:18 DIRECT 6:7 27:11 filing
clear 27:22 CSB n 7:15 22:1 EXAMINATIO g
25:9 5:25 6:25 7:25 N
14:9
close
comply 8:25 9:25 10:25 direction 7:15 22:1 filled
23:12 27:7,22 5:8 11:25 12:25 26:22 examined 25:13
concern 13:25 14:25 disagreemen 7:12 21:22 final
Code 19:16 15:2516:25 t
5:15,19 9:25 17:25 18:25 14:19 exchanged 6:8 27:21,25
consecutive Collect 14:15 19:25 20:25 11:8 financial
23:24 21:25 22:25 discrepancy 8:19
consistent 21:2 excuse
COLLOQUY 23:25 24:25 11:2 22:18 finds
5:19 8:7 25:25 26:25 discussed
5:25 6:25 18:25 excused 27.18
19:25 23:25 contact 27:25 15:19 fines
24:22 21:19 25:4 27:3
24:25 25:25 current dispute 10:5
26:25 27:25 contained 14:22 25:18 exhibit
87 913 7:23 8:3,12,13, Forgive
: :
Commission customers district 1610:13,15,17, 26:17
5:14,19,23,25 continue 18:21 5:17 1911:11,16,19, forward
6:14,17 7:67 23:5 Cut document 20 12:4 17:1 24:25
8:18,23 9:5,10 convincing 19:11 6:12 10:9,12
11:1113:3 26:9 11:10,2212:8 expect freight
15:16 16:22 23�9 18:3,7
20:9,15 22:15, copies D documents explain front
20 23:3 27:20 11:6 11:8 16:13 22:15 24:19
Commission' copy dark drop explaining fully
S 10:15 24:25 27:5 17:4
27:23
5:17 Corporation date due explanation future
COmml$SIOn 18:21 12:113:11 9:2,312:14,15 18:1319:10 22:22
er correct dates 26:21
5:3 6:18,21,24 10:25 13:20,21 11:23 12:6 duly F
8:14 10:14,22 15:12,17 17:25 7:12 21:22 G
18A5 20:16,24, dating Duvall
11:1,5,12,15 14:15 facts
16:8 17:14 25 21:5,6 22:11 6:16 7:7 8:10,17 gain
18:1019:6,9,14, corrections December 10:11,16,17 6.7 23:16,17
19,23 20:3,8,10, 8:1 15:11 11:6,7,9,18,20 failing general
17,2121:1,11, correctly decision 16:1217:11 26:11 14:5
15,18 23:2 23:15 6:8 27:25 21:15,16 22:2, failure generally
24:12 25:5,6,8 definition 25 27:12 5:7 6:1
26:2,17 27:2,6, Corresponds 1 22:12
17:21 fantastic 244:2:255
10,12,13,17,18 nce
Commission 15:22 deliberate E 18:1119:21 generate
27:24 fault 18:2
e6: costs educated 22:18 generated
23:21 describe
6:7 27:24 16:11 24:9 February 21:8
counsel
companies 14:12,13,25 6:14 determinatio employees 9:7 GIOR
15:5 Couple
n 25:16 fee 9:5 15:23,25 com an 20:11 5:18 encourage 8:23 9:16,21 21 111132
p y 16:4,11,13,14,
determined 24:17,22 17:7
5:10 6:1,3,19 Court 21:7
8:20 9:4,5,14 5:18 6:9 20:22,23 end fees
10:312:18,25 Cr develop 9:7 5:9 ,7,12 8:21 give
:11111512:9,11, 16:1322:20
13:4,8,14,22 17:25 18:25 25:10 26:23 enforce 26:6,21
5:18 12,18 13:8,12,
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Index: civil to give
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
good identified live months 18:2
5:3 23:10,16 7:1 J 25:23 15:14 outline
gross immediately lot morning 16:17
9:9 16:14 17:22 5:11 jobs 11:21 19:4 24:6, 5:3 outlines
20:14,19 21:9 imposition 23:9 14 move 17:2
guarantee 5:15 John love 8:1011:9
outstanding
24:5
including 5:21 19:15 move- 5:12
guess 20:12 joined forward overview
19:2 indicative 5:22 M 23:25 25:15,24 15:20
14:4 JR moving owes
H information 5:3 6:18,21,24 M-1-C-H-A-E- 24:24 9:14
8:7 9:13 8:14 10:14,22 L
owner
half initial 11:1,5,12,15 22:6 N 22:8
9.1,2 6.12 16:8 17:1418:1019:6,9,14, mail
Hammond installment 19,23 20:3,8 15:10 N-A-N-C-Y p
5:3,216:18,21, 12:14,15 21:11,15,18 make 7:21
24 8:14 10:14, instance 23:2 24:12 25:6 6:8 10:3 24:6,23 Nancy m,
22 11:1,5,12,15 p'
16:8 17:14
7:11 27:2,6,10,13,17 makes 7:8,10,20,22 28;3
18:1019:6,9,14, inter July 24:21 24:18 paid
19,23 20:3,8 17:24 23:12 12:12,13,22 mandates noncomplian 12:12,13 13:1,8,
21:11,15,18 interest 13:24 5:8 Ce 10,18,19,24
23:2 24:12 25:6 5:13 9:15,18,23 jump March 10:6 14:22 15:13
27:2,6,10,13,17 17;3,7,8 19:6 5:25 17:8,9 November 16:23 17:7 26:6
handed interject jumping Maries 9:313:2 part
10:12 11:10 16:9 24:13 5:6 6:19 10:24 number 20:4
handful internally June 11:4,2512:7 17:4 partially
18:21 18:18 13:18 14:8 20:12,18 numbers 18:6
haul interstate 22:9,12 11:2120:22 parties
18:24 18:8,19 25:21 K material 21:5 6:13 7:4
hearing12:4
intra party
5:5,9 6:2 7:1 17:24 18:17 knowing matter O 14:20 15:3
10:4 13:7,11 23:12 15:13 5:6 6:12 7:5 27:18
15:14 24:16 24:21 pattern
intrastate knowledge objection p
27:7,2128:1 9:9 16:14 17:22 13:414:7 matters 8:1511:13 14:515:7
hearings 18:17 20:14,19 23:6 offense pay
6:9 21:9 25:20 means 5:7,11 6:1 12:8,
held L 16:11 5:16
introduce office 11,1 s,25 13:12,
19:15 mentioned
6:2 13:7 15,17,23 23:20
highlighted introduced labeled 16:9,20 23:11 24:6 25:11,14
11:23 12:3,5 8:12 10:13 official 26:7,22,25
27:19 late m i c 6:10
hire investigate 9:24 13:10,12 6.22 operating paying
222:12,21
26:8 21:4 Michael p g
14:15 15:7 17:3 9:9 16:15 17:23
history invoice 22:12,16,17 6:16 21:21 22:6 payment
20:14,19 21:10 9:24 12:5,21,22
22:16 8:24 12:1 24:8 Mike
hope 6:20,23 opportunity 15:7 17:3 22:16
p involved lateness 5:10 6:3 25:18,19
23:17 14:14,25 27:16 mind
order payments
ISSUe letter 17:4 5:24,25 6:2 13:5 10:20 12:2
1 27:25 10:3 15:10,11 modification 27:21 14:15 27:4
issued levy s originally penalties
Idaho 5:24 10:5 8:2 26:4 5:15 10:5 15:15
5:1,15,19 7:11 issues life moment
originate people
9:2514:9,18,20
14:15 24:23 24:1 25:5 18:7 23:8,14,18,21
15:4 18:3,8
issuing listen money originating 25:13,20,25
27:21 23:13 23:21 26:23,24
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Index: good to people
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
percent promptly recognize responsibilit small submission
10:1 5:8 10:9 y 18:20 15:23
permission proper record 21:3 23:14 SMR-R-24-01 submit
26:7 19:3 6:6,8,11,13 7:19 25:14 26:8 5:5 9:5,8 16:3 21:7
place provide 8:1210:12 revenue sorts submitted
5:4 15:18 11:11,1716:10 9:9 16:15 17:23 24:2 27:24
19:15 20:4 22:5 20:14,19 21:8,
plan public 27:20,22 10 sound sue
26:24 8:22 referred 23:13 5:17
point PUC revenues speak sworn
9:17 24:15 25:3 7:11 5:5 16:18 18:2 6:21 7:12 21:22
regard 20:22
poorly purpose 24:20 review specialist
16:2 5:9 8:19 T
reiterate 6:7
possibility purposes 13:25 River specifically
10:4 6:13 11:23 takes
related 5:6 6:19 11:4,25
potential 10:24 role spell 24:14
10:5 15:14 7:18 22:4
Q relation 8:1 s talk
Potlatch
15:20 room spread 25:25 27:8
18:21 question relative 7:1 8:1110:11 talking prepared 10:23 16:2 8:6 9:12 13:4 row 11:10 26:19
10:19 17:1 18:11,12 19:12, telling
present 13,20 21:4 remarks 24:19 St telling
6:19 10:24 17:4
6:13 questions 23:20 11:4,2412:7 terminate
8:5 17:12,15 reorganizatio S 14:8 20:12,18
president 22:s 12 18:7
5:2314:8,10,21 20:5,9,1121:12, n
15:3 20:9 22:8 16 23:1,3 24:2 Savings staff terminating
23:3 quick rephrase 18:25 6:15,17 7:6,7 18:3
revent 15:20 9:18 secretary 17:1120:22 terminology
p 19:24 report 14:10 15:1 21:4 24:18 26:4, 19:4
R 16:16,18 20:18 sector 8,10 27:8,10 testified
previous 16:19 23:15 26:3 stand 7:12 21:23
re ported 7:8 21:17 testify
15:19 19:1 20:1521:2 5:14
previously rail seek stands 18:1319:16
railroad reporter self- 17:22 thing
prior Start 23:13 24:13
5:6 6:19 10:24 6:9,10
9:s 27:2o certifying 7.5 things
11:4,2512:7 REPORTING 21:7
private 14:8,13 15:4 5:25 6:25 7:25 starting 23:22 24:10,25
26:3 18:22 20:13,18 8:25 9:25 10:25 senior 8:19 15:22 THURSDAY
privately 22:9 11:2512:25 state 5:1
27:25 railroads 13:2514:25 separate 7:17 14:10 15:1
16:10 time
problem 14:1718:20 15:2516:25 18:3,8,18,19,23 5:4 12:25 13:9,
24:21 25:1 24:3,4 17:25 18:25 Sets 21:9 22:3 23:23 15,20,23 14:19,
problems Railway 19:25 20:25 8:23 stated 21,22 17:13
24:5 14:20 21:25 22:25 ship 5:25 20:11 23:20,21 24:6,
23:25 24:25 18:23 19:1 11
proceeding reach 25:25 26:25 statement
6:5 24:18 27:25 Show 10:1911:2,3,24 timely
5:4,10,24 10:4 15:24,25 16:4 12:8,18
proceedings read reports 13:5,7 28:1 20:4 today
5:22 8:12 25:23 y
8:5 24:8
process real representing Shows Statutory 's
8:20 26:9 6:17 12:1 5:8 toda y
produced receive required Silence Stay 5:2224:21 2a:22 transcript
7:11 16:3 26:20 5:11 25:11 P
prompt received respect simply Stimson 6:5,1026:20 1s:22 turn
22:21,24 12:21,22 14:1 15:15
15:22,25 Sir strongly 7:3 8:24
6:25 20:7 24:17,22
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Index: percent to turn
Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING
works
U 24:20
worries
underlying 6:24
6:6 worse
understand 24:21
18:16 20:2 23:9
25:13,16,20 Y
26:10
understandin year
g 8:22,25 9:17
18:17 24:10 12:2,6 16:19
25:21
years
understands 22:13
26:5 yesterday
unload 10:20 17:2,5,6
18:23
upcoming
22:22
utilities
8:23
utility
8:25 9:8 20:12
W
W-1-L-L-1-A-
M-S
22:7
Washington
14:19 15:4
Western
14:18
whatsoever
15:6
Williams
6:20,23 11:13,
14 14:7,14,24
15:25 17:14,16,
19 18:15 19:8,
12,18,22 20:17
21:13,14,17,21
22:3,6,11,25
23:47 25:4,9,12
26:12 27:1,2,4,
9,13,15
witnesses
7:4 27:11
word
23:11
words
23:12 26:14,19
work
23:8 24:10
DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704
Index: underlying to yesterday