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HomeMy WebLinkAbout20240423Show Cause Hearing Volume I.pdf PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING SAINT MARIES RIVER RAILROAD April 11 , 2024 ND DEPOIDAHO Local Reoltim.e tiCrortinq & Videogrophy Experts PO Box 44385, Boise, I D 83711 0 1 0 . 0 . Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING BEFORE THE IDAHO PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF ST MARIES ) CASE NO. RIVER RAILROAD COMPANY ' S ) SMR-R-24-01 FAILURE TO PAY ITS 2023 ) ASSESSMENT FEES AND PROMPTLY ) ORDER TO SHOW COMPLY WITH ORDER TO SHOW ) CAUSE STATUTORY MANDATES ) NOTICE OF HEARING ORDER NO . 36120 BEFORE COMMISSIONER PRESIDENT ERIC ANDERSON COMMISSIONER EDWARD LODGE COMMISSIONER JOHN HAMMOND, JR. (Presiding) PLACE : Commission Hearing Room 11331 West Chinden Blvd. Building 8, Suite 201-A Boise, Idaho DATE : April 11, 2024 VOLUME I - Pages 1 - 29 DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 4 For Staff: 5 6 Michael Duvall Deputy Attorney General, IPUC 7 11331 West Chinden Blvd. Building 8, Suite 201-A 8 Boise, Idaho 83720-0074 9 10 11 12 For St Maries River Railroad: 13 Michael Wayne Williams 14 President of St . Maries River Railroad 10100 N Ambassador Dr . , Suite 105 15 Kansas City, Missouri 64153 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE 4 5 Nancy Ashcraft Mr. Duvall (Direct) 7 Mr. Williams (Cross) 17 6 Commissioner Anderson 20 7 8 Michael Williams Mr. Duvall (Direct) 22 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 4 1 E X H I B I T S 2 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 4 5 FOR THE STAFF: 6 7 1 . Affidavit of Nancy Ashcraft Premarked Admitted 8 8 9 2 . Idaho PUC Statement Premarked 10 Admitted 11 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBITS DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 5 1 BOISE, IDAHO, THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024, 11 : 05 A.M. 2 3 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Good morning. 4 This is the time and place for a show cause 5 hearing in Case No . SMR-R-24-01, also referred to 6 as in the matter of St Maries River Railroad 7 Company' s failure to pay its 2023 assessment fees 8 and promptly comply with statutory mandates . 9 The purpose of this hearing is to allow 10 the company an opportunity to show cause why it 11 should not be required to immediately pay the 12 entire outstanding balance for 2023 annual fees, 13 plus interest, in the amount of $6, 273 . 95; have 14 the Commission through its attorneys seek the 15 imposition of civil penalties under Idaho Code 16 61-706 of up to $2, 000 for each and every offense; 17 to have the Commission ' s attorneys sue in district 18 court to enforce the determination of the 19 Commission consistent with Idaho Code 61-705, 20 61-706, and 61-1005 . 21 My name is John Hammond. I am the Chair 22 of today' s proceedings . And I am joined by 23 Commission President Eric Anderson to my right . 24 A show cause order was issued by this 25 Commission on March 26, 2024 . The order stated COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 6 1 failure to pay claims against the company. This 2 hearing is being held in order to allow the 3 company an opportunity to address the claims 4 against it . 5 The transcript of this proceeding will be 6 added to the underlying record in this case . The 7 Commissioners will review the facts and evidence 8 in the record to make its final decision. We do 9 use a court reporter for these hearings and that 10 reporter will create an official transcript for 11 our record. 12 As an initial matter, let ' s document, for 13 purposes of the record, the parties present and 14 their counsel . We can begin with the Commission 15 Staff. 16 MR. DUVALL: Thank you. Michael Duvall 17 representing Commission Staff. 18 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : And for the 19 Railroad, St Maries River Railroad Company? 20 MR. WILLIAMS : Mike Williams . 21 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Can you speak 22 into the mic. 23 MR. WILLIAMS : Mike Williams . I 'm sorry. 24 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : No worries . 25 Thank you very much, sir. Is there anybody else COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 7 1 in the hearing room that needs to be identified? 2 I don ' t believe so . 3 With that, I will turn it over to the 4 parties to see if there are any witnesses that 5 need to be called in this matter . I ' ll start with 6 Commission Staff . 7 MR. DUVALL: Commission Staff would call 8 Nancy Ashcraft to the stand. 9 10 NANCY ASHCRAFT, 11 produced at the instance of Idaho PUC, having been 12 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 13 follows : 14 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MS . ASHCRAFT : 17 Q. Thank you. Ms . Ashcraft, please state 18 your name and spell your first and last name for 19 the record, please. 20 A. My name is Nancy Ashcraft . That ' s 21 N-A-N-C-Y, A-S-H-C-RA-F-T . 22 Q. And are you the same Nancy Ashcraft that 23 filed an affidavit in this case with an Exhibit A 24 attached? 25 A. Yes . ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 8 1 Q. Do you have any corrections or 2 modifications to your filed affidavit or its 3 accompanying exhibit? 4 A. No, I do not . 5 Q. If I were to ask you today questions 6 relative to that affidavit, would the answers be 7 consistent with the information contained in the 8 affidavit? 9 A. Yes, they would. 10 MR. DUVALL: Mr. Chair, I would now move 11 to spread the affidavit with its accompanying 12 Exhibit A on the record as if read labeled 13 Exhibit 1 . 14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Any 15 objection? So admitted. 16 (Exhibit 1 admitted. ) 17 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, what is 18 your role at the Commission? 19 A. I 'm the financial specialist senior . 20 Q. And what is the process for the company 21 paying its assessment fees? 22 A. In April of each year, the public 23 utilities commission sets an assessment fee 24 amount . We would then turn around and invoice 25 each utility before May 1st of every year. ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 9 1 By May 15th of every year, half of that 2 assessment would be due and the second half would 3 be due on November 15th. 4 Q. Okay. And before a company is assessed, 5 does the company submit to the Commission a GIOR? 6 And what is that? 7 A. Each year around the end of February and 8 prior to April 1st, each utility must submit their 9 gross intrastate operating revenue to the 10 Commission . This is what we use to calculate the 11 assessment fees . 12 Q. Thank you. And relative to your 13 affidavit and the information contained therein, 14 what did your affidavit say the company owes for 15 its 2023 assessment fees and accrued interest? 16 A. The assessment fee for 2023 was 17 $6, 117 . 91 . And at that point, there was -- 18 Q. I ' ll rephrase . We' ll get to the interest 19 later. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. But the assessment fee was what, again? 22 A. $6, 117 . 91 . 23 Q. Thank you. And does interest accrue at 24 late payment? 25 A. Yes, it does . Per Idaho Code, it accrues ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 10 COL OQUY 1 at six percent per annum. 2 Q. Thank you. In your affidavit, you have a 3 letter attached. Did your letter make the company 4 aware of the possibility for a show cause hearing 5 and the potential levy of fines or penalties in 6 this case for noncompliance? 7 A. Yes, it did. 8 Q. Thank you. And Ms. Ashcraft, do you 9 recognize this document? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 MR. DUVALL: I would like to spread to 12 the record the document that I handed Ms . Ashcraft 13 labeled Exhibit 2 . 14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : What is 15 Exhibit 2? I don't have a copy of that. 16 MR. DUVALL: Thank you. 17 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : What is Exhibit 2, 18 Ms. Ashcraft? 19 A. Exhibit 2 is a statement prepared 20 yesterday of all assessment and payments going 21 back to 2016. 22 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : And a 23 question in aid of clarification here: Is that 24 assessment related to St Maries Railroad? 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 11 1 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Or that 2 statement? Excuse me . 3 THE WITNESS : That statement is for 4 St Maries River Railroad. 5 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Thank you. 6 Do you have copies of that, Mr. Duvall? 7 MR. DUVALL: I do . 8 (Documents exchanged. ) 9 MR. DUVALL: Mr. Chair, I would move to 10 spread the document I just handed to the 11 Commission as Exhibit 2 on the record. 12 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Any 13 objection, Mr. Williams? 14 MR. WILLIAMS : No . 15 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Commissioner 16 Anderson? Exhibit 2 will be admitted into the 17 record. 18 MR. DUVALL: Thank you. 19 (Exhibit 2 admitted. ) 20 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, Exhibit 2 21 has a lot of numbers on it. Could you tell us 22 generally what this document is and what the 23 highlighted dates are specifically? 24 A. This is a statement of the account for St 25 Maries River Railroad that goes back to 2016 . It ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 12 1 shows the invoice for assessment plus the date of 2 the payments for each year . 3 Q. Thank you. And what is the highlighted 4 material on Exhibit 2? 5 A. The highlighted areas are the payment 6 dates for the assessment for each year . 7 Q. Okay. And did St Maries Railroad, based 8 off of this document, timely pay its assessment 9 fees in 2017? 10 A. No, they did not . 11 Q. When did they pay those assessment fees? 12 A. Those fees were paid on July 24, 2017 . 13 Q. So they were paid in July. When was the 14 first installment due? 15 A. The first installment was due on 16 May 15th. 17 Q. Thank you. And what about for 2018? Did 18 the company timely pay its assessment fees in 19 2018? 20 A. No, they did not . 21 Q. When was the payment received? 22 A. The payment was received on July 17, 23 2019 . 24 Q. Thank you. And what about for 2019? Did 25 the company pay on time at that time? ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 13 1 A. No, they did not . They paid on 2 November 4, 2019 . 3 Q. And in 2019, did the Commission take any 4 action relative to the company to your knowledge? 5 A. Yes . A show cause order was filed in 6 2019 . 7 Q. And was the show cause hearing held? 8 A. No . The company paid their fees at that 9 time . 10 Q. They paid them late? 11 A. Before the hearing date . 12 Q. Okay. And did they pay those fees late? 13 A. Yes, they did. 14 Q. And what about in 2020? Did the company 15 pay its assessment fees on time? 16 A. No, they did not . 17 Q. When did they pay their assessment fees? 18 A. They paid on June 26, 2020 . 19 Q. And it appears from 2021 that they paid 20 it on time; is that correct? 21 A. Yes, that is correct . 22 Q. And what about for 2022? Did the company 23 pay its assessment fees on time? 24 A. They did not . They paid on July 5, 2022 . 25 Q. And just to reiterate for 2023, have we ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 14 1 received the company' s assessment fees? 2 A. We have not . 3 Q. Thank you. Ms . Ashcraft, do you believe 4 that the company' s behavior is indicative of a 5 general pattern? 6 A. Yes, I do . 7 Q. And to your knowledge, is Mr. Williams 8 the president of St Maries Railroad? 9 A. Based on the filing to the Idaho 10 Secretary of State, he is the president of the 11 company, yes . 12 Q. Thank you. And how many other companies, 13 railroad companies are you aware of that 14 Mr. Williams is involved with that have 15 consecutive issues of late payments dating back to 16 2016 or 2017? 17 A. There are no other railroads other -- 18 well, there was one, Western Idaho . And at the 19 time, there was a disagreement between Washington 20 Idaho Railway and a third party of who was the 21 president of the company at that time . Since that 22 time, the third company has paid current all 23 assessment fees . 24 Q. Okay. And was Mr. Williams at all 25 involved with those companies, either of those? ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 15 1 A. According to the secretary of state, it 2 was going back and forth between Mr. Williams and 3 a third party of who was the president of the 4 Washington Idaho Railroad. 5 Q. Okay. So all companies that Mr. Williams 6 doesn' t have any attachment to whatsoever, is 7 there any pattern of late payment that we can see? 8 A. No . 9 Q. Thank you. So in your affidavit, you 10 sent a letter to the company via certified mail on 11 December 5 , 2023 . And based off of that letter, 12 would it be correct to say that the company has 13 not paid its assessment fees despite knowing for 14 months the potential for this hearing and 15 associated penalties with respect to the 16 Commission? 17 A. Correct . 18 Q. Thank you. And could you provide just -- 19 some of this has been discussed previously -- but 20 a quick overview of -- in relation to this company 21 for its assessment fees for 2023, what 22 correspondence were received when? So starting 23 with the company' s submission of its GIOR 24 statement? 25 A. The GIOR statement was received on, I ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 16 1 believe -- 2 Q. I 'm sorry, I asked that question poorly. 3 Did the company receive -- did the company submit 4 a GIOR statement? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. Was the company then sent an assessment? 7 A. Yes, they were . 8 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Can I 9 interject here . I 'm not sure -- you mentioned it, 10 but since we have a separate record for this case, 11 could we describe what GIOR means . 12 Q. (BY MR. DUVALL) : Ms . Ashcraft, could you 13 give us that acronym and explain what the GIOR is . 14 A. GIOR is an acronym for gross intrastate 15 operating revenue . 16 Q. Thank you. And what does that report 17 outline? 18 A. That report is the revenues from the 19 company for the previous calendar year . 20 Q. Thank you. So you mentioned that the 21 company had sent its GIOR and it had been sent an 22 assessment by the Commission. 23 Has the company paid its 2023 assessment 24 fees? 25 A. No, it has not . ASHCRAFT (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 17 1 Q. And in Exhibit 2 , which was prepared 2 yesterday, April 10 , 2024 , it outlines the 3 company' s interest for late payment. Would you 4 mind explaining, telling us what that number is as 5 of yesterday, April loth? 6 A. As of yesterday, there is a $28 . 32 7 interest fee from 2022 that has not been paid. 8 And as of March 5th, there was a $259 . 36 interest 9 charge . And from March 5th to April 10th, there 10 is another $36 . 11 . 11 MR. DUVALL: Alright . Thank you. Staff 12 has no further questions for the witness at this 13 time . 14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr . Williams, 15 do you have any questions of the witness? 16 MR. WILLIAMS : Yes . 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. WILLIAMS : 20 Q. Would you tell me again what the 21 definition of GIOR is? 22 A. The GIOR stands for gross intrastate 23 operating revenue . 24 Q. You' re saying intra, not inter? 25 A. Correct . ASHCRAFT (Cr) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 18 1 Q. Okay. So these assessments to me are for 2 revenues that I generate for originating and 3 terminating freight within the State of Idaho; is 4 that correct? 5 A. Correct . 6 Q. I tell you what, I partially don' t know 7 of any freight that I originate and terminate in 8 the State of Idaho. You know, interstate, you 9 know like -- I 'm sorry. 10 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : No, that ' s 11 okay. If you have a question, that ' s fantastic, a 12 question to the witness . But if you want to 13 testify as to some explanation, then we ' ll have 14 you come and -- 15 MR. WILLIAMS : No . I 'm just trying to 16 understand that, you know, because my 17 understanding, like I said, intrastate is intra, 18 what happens internally in the state, and 19 interstate is from state to state . And you know, 20 so, you know, our railroads are small . We have 21 but a handful of customers, Potlatch Corporation 22 and Stimson . I am just not aware why any railroad 23 would ship and unload in the same state . You 24 know, it ' s almost a 700-mile haul before there ' s a 25 break in savings between, you know, the need to ASHCRAFT (Cr) COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 19 1 ship by rail . 2 And I guess I just want to be sure that 3 what I 'm being billed for, you know, is proper -- 4 the terminology -- so there ' s a lot of 5 difference -- 6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Let me jump 7 in here again. 8 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Again, I 10 appreciate your explanation. And I don ' t want to 11 cut you -- if you want -- 12 MR. WILLIAMS : It ' s a question. It ' s a 13 question . 14 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : If you want 15 to introduce that into the record, I would love to 16 have you come up and testify as to your concern 17 about -- 18 MR. WILLIAMS : Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. -- about how 20 you ' re billed. And so, if you do have a question, 21 fantastic . I 'm just asking -- 22 MR. WILLIAMS : I 'm sorry. I 'm sorry. 23 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Yeah. I 24 think that -- I 'm not trying to prevent you. I 'm 25 just -- COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 20 1 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah, I 'm trying to 2 understand. I 'm sorry. 3 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. -- want it to 4 be part of the record as your witness statement . 5 Thank you. Do you have any other questions of 6 Ms . Ashcraft? 7 MR. WILLIAMS : No, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Okay. Do you 9 have any questions, Commission President Anderson? 10 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: I do have a 11 couple of questions . So as you stated, the 12 assessment on each utility, including St Maries 13 Railroad, is calculated based off of what the 14 gross intrastate operating revenue is or has been 15 reported to the Commission? 16 THE WITNESS : Correct . 17 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: And did the 18 company, St Maries Railroad itself, report its 19 gross intrastate operating revenue? 20 THE WITNESS : Yes . 21 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Those were not 22 numbers determined by staff, those revenues; they 23 were determined by the company; isn ' t that 24 correct? 25 THE WITNESS : Correct . ASHCRAFT (Com) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 21 1 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Okay. And so, if 2 there is a discrepancy in what is being reported, 3 that is the company' s responsibility to 4 investigate or question with Staff the accuracy of 5 those numbers; is that correct? 6 THE WITNESS : Correct . When we -- when 7 they submit their GIOR, they are self-certifying 8 that that is the revenue that was generated 9 within -- for the state, for the gross intrastate 10 operating revenue . 11 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : I don ' t have 12 any further questions . Does anybody else? 13 Mr . Williams? 14 MR. WILLIAMS : No . 15 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr . Duvall? 16 MR. DUVALL: No further questions . I 17 would like to call Mr. Williams to the stand. 18 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Thank you, 19 Ms . Ashcraft . You are excused. 20 21 MICHAEL WILLIAMS, 22 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 23 testified as follows : 24 25 ASHCRAFT (Com) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 22 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. DUVALL: 3 Q. Mr. Williams , would you please state your 4 name and spell your first and last name for the 5 record, please. 6 A. Michael Williams, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, 7 W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S . 8 Q. And are you the president or owner of St 9 Maries Railroad? 10 A. I am. 11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Williams . Is it correct 12 that St Maries has been generally late in paying 13 its assessment fees for most years since 2017? 14 A. I believe so . 15 Q. And could you explain to the Commission 16 why the company has a history of late payment and 17 why the company is late for its 2023 assessment? 18 A. Just error on my fault with no excuse . 19 Q. Okay. So is there any assurance that you 20 could give to the Commission that you will be 21 prompt in paying not only your 2023 assessment but 22 your upcoming 2024 assessment and future 23 assessments? 24 A. Yes, I will be prompt on that . 25 MR. DUVALL: Thank you . No further WILLIAMS (Di) DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 23 1 questions . 2 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Do you have 3 any questions, Commission President, for 4 Mr. Williams? 5 You may continue if you have more to say 6 about any of these matters . 7 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah. You know, I just, 8 you know, have people that work under me and I 9 expect for them to do their jobs . I understand, 10 you know -- I just -- the good out of this is when 11 I go back to my office, I -- you know, the word 12 intra and inter are very close words . If you 13 listen, they almost sound like the same thing. 14 You know, it is my responsibility for my people to 15 report that correctly. And so, you know, what I 16 gain for this -- I say there ' s good in all bad. 17 But what I hope to gain from this is to take a 18 look at if my people may have done that . 19 But again, I appreciate, you know, the 20 candid remarks to pay the assessment on time 21 because it costs -- time is money. You people are 22 here . You know, there are other things, I 'm sure 23 you could be doing for the state instead of trying 24 to collect some of these bills . 25 But I can just tell you on a move-forward COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 24 1 basis for me where I 'm at in my life . You know, 2 there will be a reorganization of sorts with the 3 railroads, with both of the railroads, to get 4 those railroads back to where they need to be 5 without these problems . So I guarantee you, I 6 will make this on time and I will pay a lot of 7 attention to what is going on here . So I 8 apologize for being late today. I thank you for, 9 you know, me getting a little more educated and 10 having an understanding on how things work. So I 11 thank you for your time . 12 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : So adding, 13 jumping in here, I ' d say, one thing I 'm very aware 14 of is that it takes a while -- it takes a lot to 15 get to a point where we actually have to have a 16 hearing. 17 And what I would encourage you strongly 18 to do is to reach out to Staff, Nancy, 19 Ms . Ashcraft, who is here in the front row, or to 20 anyone else that she works with in regard to this 21 matter. Silence only makes the problem worse . So 22 I would strongly encourage you to stay in contact 23 with them to make sure that there aren' t issues 24 and that everybody is on the same page moving 25 forward. When things go dark, that ' s generally COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 25 1 when it becomes a problem. 2 And so, with that, I believe at this 3 point, is there anything further? Any of you -- 4 you ' re excused, Mr. Williams . 5 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: One moment . 6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Oh, I 'm 7 sorry. 8 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: With that, 9 Mr. Williams, just so I 'm clear, are you beginning 10 to develop an argument that you may not be 11 required to pay these assessments? 12 MR. WILLIAMS : No . But the way I 13 understand it is my people filled those out and so 14 that ' s my responsibility to pay it. I just want 15 to be sure on a move-forward basis that my 16 company, my employees understand the difference 17 between the two . 18 No, I don ' t dispute the payment . I have 19 the payment for you. I just, you know, want to 20 understand my people -- that because of intrastate 21 and interstate, that they are understanding what 22 they are to file . But I haven' t -- no, we filed 23 those, those reports and that ' s what we live with 24 up until now. It ' s just on a move-forward basis, 25 I want to talk to my people and be sure they know COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 26 1 the clarity between the two . 2 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Because we 've 3 all -- in the private sector we come from, we all 4 do come from originally, my staff always 5 understands that a bill has arrived and that bill 6 needs to be paid. I don ' t need to give them 7 permission to pay that bill . That bill is my 8 responsibility and I hire staff to do just that . 9 It ' s not a real convincing argument to say that 10 you 've got staff that just doesn ' t understand. 11 I 'm failing to -- 12 MR. WILLIAMS : Yeah. And I wasn ' t, I 13 wasn ' t saying that . What I was saying is that, 14 for me, the two words are the same . And I just 15 want to be sure that they know. That ' s all I was 16 saying. I 'm not trying to -- 17 COMMISSIONER ANDERSON: Forgive me . I 18 wasn ' t trying to -- I wasn ' t bringing the argument 19 about the two words . I was actually talking about 20 just simply they do receive a bill . You know your 21 assessments are due and you need to give them the 22 direction to pay those . And if you don ' t have the 23 money, then you need to -- you have to develop a 24 business plan that creates that amount of money 25 for you to pay your assessments . Thank you. COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 27 1 MR. WILLIAMS : Thank you . 2 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr. Williams, 3 you are excused, unless you have anything further? 4 MR. WILLIAMS : I have the payments . Do I 5 drop them off? 6 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Yeah. Why 7 don ' t we -- at the close of the hearing, you can 8 talk with Staff about that . 9 MR. WILLIAMS : Oh, sorry. 10 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Does staff 11 have any further witnesses? Any further evidence? 12 MR. DUVALL: No, Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Mr. Williams, 14 do you have anything further? 15 MR. WILLIAMS : I do not . And again, I 16 apologize for my lateness . 17 COMMISSIONER HAMMOND, JR. : Unless any 18 party or Commissioner finds that there is 19 something else that needs to be introduced or 20 added to the record prior to the Commission 21 issuing a final order in this case, this hearing 22 will be complete and we will close the record in 23 this case, that is, the case is now fully 24 submitted and the Commissioners will deliberate 25 privately and issue a final decision . COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 28 1 With that, this show cause hearing is 2 adjourned. Thank you very much, everyone . 3 (Adjourned at 11 : 28 p .m. ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COLLOQUY DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING Page 29 1 A U T H E N T I C A T I O N 2 3 4 This is to certify that the foregoing 5 proceedings held in the matter of St Maries River 6 Railroad Company' s failure to pay its 2023 7 assessment fees and promptly comply with statutory 8 mandates, commencing at 11 : 05 a.m. , on Thursday, 9 April 11, 2024, at the Commission Hearing Room, 10 11331 West Chinden Blvd. , Building 8, Suite 201-A, 11 Boise, Idaho, is a true and correct transcript of 12 said proceedings and the original thereof for the 13 file of the Commission. 14 6 101091u88 s,, .•`GG0� R, �•. 15 �•'�tfTARy:�n to••: t O t 16 :n UBI.XC'-N 17 .,,•�•��0��••�. Maureen Ricks 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter #671 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 AUTHENTICATION DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING 16 26 A.M. April balance Exhibits 16:25 5:25 13:18 5:1 5:1 8:22 9:8 5:12 17 26:25 accompanyin 17:2,5,9 based EXH 1 St. 12:22 17:25 27 g areas 12:7 14:9 15:11 Maries 0411 18 27:25 8:3,11 12:5 20:13 24 18:25 account argument basis 8:13,16 19 4 11:24 25:10 26:9,18 24:1 25:15,24 EXH 2 St. 19:25 accrue arrived begin Maries 0411 1st 4 9:23 26:5 6:14 24 8:25 9:8 13:2 accrued Ashcraft beginning 10:13,15,17,19 9:15 7:8,10,16,17,20, 25:9 11:11,16,19,20 2 5 accrues 22,25 8:17,25 behavior 12:417:1 9.25 9:2510:8,12,18, 14:4 25 11:20,25 2 5 accuracy 12:2513:25 bill $ 10:13,15,17,19 5:2513:24 21:4 14:3,2515:25 26:5,7,20 11:11,16,19,20 15:11 acronym 16:12,2517:25 billed $2,000 12:4 17:1 5th 16:13,14 18:25 20:6,25 19:3,20 5:16 20 17:8,9 action 21:19,25 24:19 bills $259.36 20:25 13:4 assessed 23:24 17:8 2016 6 added 9:4 BOISE $28 32 10:21 11:25 6:6 27:20 assessment 5:1 17:6 14:16 6 adding 5:7 8:21,23 9:2, break $36.11 2017 6:25 24:12 11,15,16,21 18:25 17:10 12:9,1214:16 61-1005 in 10:20,2412:1,6, bringing 22:13 address 8,11,1813:15, g g 5:20 $6,117.91 6:3 17,23 14:1,23 26:18 2018 9:17,22 61-705 adjourned 15:13,21 16:6, business $6,273.95 12:17,19 5:19 28:2,3 22,23 20:12 26:24 5:13 2019 61-706 admitted 22:13,17,21,22 12:23,2413:2,3, 5:16,20 23:20 8:15,16 11:16, C 1 6 19 assessments 2020 7 affidavit 25:1226 calculate 13:1:14,18 25:11 26:2:21,25 1 7:23 8:2,6,8,11 9:10 8:13,16 20 7 9:13,1410:2 assurance calculated 13:19 15:9 22:19 10 7:25 20:13 10:2517:2 2022 700-mile aid attached calendar 18:24 16:19 13:22,24 17:7 7:24 10:3 10t 10:23 17h 2023 Alright attachment call 5:7,12 9:15,16 17:11 15:6 11 13:25 15:11,21 8 7:7 21:17 amount attention 5:1 11:25 16:23 22:17,21 called 11:05 2024 8 5:13 8:24 26:24 24:7 7:5 5:1 5:1,2517:2 8:25 Anderson attorneys 5:14,17 candid 22:22 5:23 11:16 20:9, 23:20 11:28 10,17,2121:1 aware 28:3 21 9 25:5,8 26:2,17 10:4 14:13 case 12 21:25 18:22 24:13 5:5 6:6 7:23 annual 12:25 22 9 5:12 10:6 16:1027:21,23 13 22:25 9:25 annum B 13:25 23 10:1 certified 15:10 14 23:25 A answers back 14:25 24 Chair 8:6 10:21 11:25 5:21 8:10 11:9 15 12:12 24:25 A-S-H-C-RA- 14:15 15:2 15:25 25 F-T apologize 24:8 27:16 23:1124:4 charge 15th 25:25 7:21 bad 17:9 appears 9:1,3 12:16 13:19 23:16 DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Index: $2, 000 to charge Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING civil 14:11,21,22 create Di entire 15,17,2314:1, 5:15 15:10,12,20 6:10 7:25 8:25 9:25 5:12 23 15:13,21 Claims 16:3,6,19,21,23 creates 10:25 11:25 Eric 16:24 22:13 6:1,3 20:18,23 22:16, 26:24 12:25 13:25 5:23 file 17 25:16 CROSS- 14:25 15:25 25:22 clarification company's error 's an 16:25 22:25 10:23 p y EXAMINATIO 22:18 filed 5:7 14:1,4 15:23 difference 7:23 8:2 13:5 Clarity 17:3 21:3 N 19:5 25:16 evidence 25.22 26:1 complete 17:18 DIRECT 6:7 27:11 filing clear 27:22 CSB n 7:15 22:1 EXAMINATIO g 25:9 5:25 6:25 7:25 N 14:9 close comply 8:25 9:25 10:25 direction 7:15 22:1 filled 23:12 27:7,22 5:8 11:25 12:25 26:22 examined 25:13 concern 13:25 14:25 disagreemen 7:12 21:22 final Code 19:16 15:2516:25 t 5:15,19 9:25 17:25 18:25 14:19 exchanged 6:8 27:21,25 consecutive Collect 14:15 19:25 20:25 11:8 financial 23:24 21:25 22:25 discrepancy 8:19 consistent 21:2 excuse COLLOQUY 23:25 24:25 11:2 22:18 finds 5:19 8:7 25:25 26:25 discussed 5:25 6:25 18:25 excused 27.18 19:25 23:25 contact 27:25 15:19 fines 24:22 21:19 25:4 27:3 24:25 25:25 current dispute 10:5 26:25 27:25 contained 14:22 25:18 exhibit 87 913 7:23 8:3,12,13, Forgive : : Commission customers district 1610:13,15,17, 26:17 5:14,19,23,25 continue 18:21 5:17 1911:11,16,19, forward 6:14,17 7:67 23:5 Cut document 20 12:4 17:1 24:25 8:18,23 9:5,10 convincing 19:11 6:12 10:9,12 11:1113:3 26:9 11:10,2212:8 expect freight 15:16 16:22 23�9 18:3,7 20:9,15 22:15, copies D documents explain front 20 23:3 27:20 11:6 11:8 16:13 22:15 24:19 Commission' copy dark drop explaining fully S 10:15 24:25 27:5 17:4 27:23 5:17 Corporation date due explanation future COmml$SIOn 18:21 12:113:11 9:2,312:14,15 18:1319:10 22:22 er correct dates 26:21 5:3 6:18,21,24 10:25 13:20,21 11:23 12:6 duly F 8:14 10:14,22 15:12,17 17:25 7:12 21:22 G 18A5 20:16,24, dating Duvall 11:1,5,12,15 14:15 facts 16:8 17:14 25 21:5,6 22:11 6:16 7:7 8:10,17 gain 18:1019:6,9,14, corrections December 10:11,16,17 6.7 23:16,17 19,23 20:3,8,10, 8:1 15:11 11:6,7,9,18,20 failing general 17,2121:1,11, correctly decision 16:1217:11 26:11 14:5 15,18 23:2 23:15 6:8 27:25 21:15,16 22:2, failure generally 24:12 25:5,6,8 definition 25 27:12 5:7 6:1 26:2,17 27:2,6, Corresponds 1 22:12 17:21 fantastic 244:2:255 10,12,13,17,18 nce Commission 15:22 deliberate E 18:1119:21 generate 27:24 fault 18:2 e6: costs educated 22:18 generated 23:21 describe 6:7 27:24 16:11 24:9 February 21:8 counsel companies 14:12,13,25 6:14 determinatio employees 9:7 GIOR 15:5 Couple n 25:16 fee 9:5 15:23,25 com an 20:11 5:18 encourage 8:23 9:16,21 21 111132 p y 16:4,11,13,14, determined 24:17,22 17:7 5:10 6:1,3,19 Court 21:7 8:20 9:4,5,14 5:18 6:9 20:22,23 end fees 10:312:18,25 Cr develop 9:7 5:9 ,7,12 8:21 give :11111512:9,11, 16:1322:20 13:4,8,14,22 17:25 18:25 25:10 26:23 enforce 26:6,21 5:18 12,18 13:8,12, DepoIdaho, PO Box 44385, Boise, ID 83711 (208) 345-3704 Index: civil to give Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING good identified live months 18:2 5:3 23:10,16 7:1 J 25:23 15:14 outline gross immediately lot morning 16:17 9:9 16:14 17:22 5:11 jobs 11:21 19:4 24:6, 5:3 outlines 20:14,19 21:9 imposition 23:9 14 move 17:2 guarantee 5:15 John love 8:1011:9 outstanding 24:5 including 5:21 19:15 move- 5:12 guess 20:12 joined forward overview 19:2 indicative 5:22 M 23:25 25:15,24 15:20 14:4 JR moving owes H information 5:3 6:18,21,24 M-1-C-H-A-E- 24:24 9:14 8:7 9:13 8:14 10:14,22 L owner half initial 11:1,5,12,15 22:6 N 22:8 9.1,2 6.12 16:8 17:1418:1019:6,9,14, mail Hammond installment 19,23 20:3,8 15:10 N-A-N-C-Y p 5:3,216:18,21, 12:14,15 21:11,15,18 make 7:21 24 8:14 10:14, instance 23:2 24:12 25:6 6:8 10:3 24:6,23 Nancy m, 22 11:1,5,12,15 p' 16:8 17:14 7:11 27:2,6,10,13,17 makes 7:8,10,20,22 28;3 18:1019:6,9,14, inter July 24:21 24:18 paid 19,23 20:3,8 17:24 23:12 12:12,13,22 mandates noncomplian 12:12,13 13:1,8, 21:11,15,18 interest 13:24 5:8 Ce 10,18,19,24 23:2 24:12 25:6 5:13 9:15,18,23 jump March 10:6 14:22 15:13 27:2,6,10,13,17 17;3,7,8 19:6 5:25 17:8,9 November 16:23 17:7 26:6 handed interject jumping Maries 9:313:2 part 10:12 11:10 16:9 24:13 5:6 6:19 10:24 number 20:4 handful internally June 11:4,2512:7 17:4 partially 18:21 18:18 13:18 14:8 20:12,18 numbers 18:6 haul interstate 22:9,12 11:2120:22 parties 18:24 18:8,19 25:21 K material 21:5 6:13 7:4 hearing12:4 intra party 5:5,9 6:2 7:1 17:24 18:17 knowing matter O 14:20 15:3 10:4 13:7,11 23:12 15:13 5:6 6:12 7:5 27:18 15:14 24:16 24:21 pattern intrastate knowledge objection p 27:7,2128:1 9:9 16:14 17:22 13:414:7 matters 8:1511:13 14:515:7 hearings 18:17 20:14,19 23:6 offense pay 6:9 21:9 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(208) 345-3704 Index: good to people Saint Maries River Railroad 04/11/2024 PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION HEARING percent promptly recognize responsibilit small submission 10:1 5:8 10:9 y 18:20 15:23 permission proper record 21:3 23:14 SMR-R-24-01 submit 26:7 19:3 6:6,8,11,13 7:19 25:14 26:8 5:5 9:5,8 16:3 21:7 place provide 8:1210:12 revenue sorts submitted 5:4 15:18 11:11,1716:10 9:9 16:15 17:23 24:2 27:24 19:15 20:4 22:5 20:14,19 21:8, plan public 27:20,22 10 sound sue 26:24 8:22 referred 23:13 5:17 point PUC revenues speak sworn 9:17 24:15 25:3 7:11 5:5 16:18 18:2 6:21 7:12 21:22 regard 20:22 poorly purpose 24:20 review specialist 16:2 5:9 8:19 T reiterate 6:7 possibility purposes 13:25 River specifically 10:4 6:13 11:23 takes related 5:6 6:19 11:4,25 potential 10:24 role spell 24:14 10:5 15:14 7:18 22:4 Q relation 8:1 s talk Potlatch 15:20 room spread 25:25 27:8 18:21 question relative 7:1 8:1110:11 talking prepared 10:23 16:2 8:6 9:12 13:4 row 11:10 26:19 10:19 17:1 18:11,12 19:12, 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