REXBURG.txt

1 REXBURG, IDAHO, TUESDAY, JULY 27, 1999, 7:15 P.M.

2

3

4 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Good evening,

5 ladies and gentlemen. This public hearing will be

6 in order.

7 This is the time and place set by the

8 Idaho Public Utility Commission in Case No.

9 PAC-E-99-1, known as In the matter of the joint

10 Application and Petition of PacifiCorp and

11 ScottishPower plc for an Order approving proposed

12 transaction and an Order approving the issuance of

13 PacifiCorp common stock.

14 I am Commissioner Dennis Hansen and I

15 will be chairman of tonight's hearing. At my left

16 is Commissioner Marsha Smith, and at my right is

17 Commissioner Paul Kjellander. The three of us make

18 up the Commission, and we will be the ones that will

19 be making the Decision in this case.

20 We will now take the appearances of

21 the parties that are hearing this evening -- excuse

22 me -- hear this evening. We'll start with the

23 Staff.

24 MR. PURDY: As most of you have

25 already met us this evening, but I am Brad Purdy,

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 deputy attorney general, of the Idaho Public

2 Utilities Commission Staff -- there we go -- and

3 also with me are Rick Sterling, an engineer with the

4 Commission, and Beverly Barker, who is with our

5 consumer assistance division.

6 A VOICE: Would you repeat that so

7 that we can hear it this time?

8 MR. PURDY: You bet. Brad Purdy. I

9 am a deputy attorney general --

10 A VOICE: Stand up and look at us so

11 we can look in our eyes when you talk to us.

12 MR. PURDY: Be happy to do that. How

13 is that?

14 A VOICE: Good.

15 MR. PURDY: I am Brad Purdy. I am a

16 deputy attorney general. I represent the Idaho

17 Public Utilities Commission Staff. With me this

18 evening to my left is Rick Sterling, who is an

19 engineer with the Commission Staff, and to his left,

20 Beverly Barker, who is with the consumer assistance

21 division.

22 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

23 PacifiCorp.

24 MR. ERIKSSON: I'm John Eriksson with

25 the firm of Stoel Rives. I represent PacifiCorp.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 MR. MILLER: My name is Joe Miller of

2 the firm McDevitt and Miller, and we represent

3 ScottishPower in this Application.

4 MR. BUDGE: My name is Randy Budge.

5 I'm an attorney in Pocatello. I represent Solutia,

6 formerly Monsanto. We intervened in this case

7 because we oppose the merger.

8 (Applause.)

9 MR. NYE: Commissioner, my name is

10 Mark Nye, a lawyer representing the Idaho Irrigation

11 Pumpers Association, who has intervened in

12 opposition to the proposed merger.

13 (Applause.)

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Ladies

15 and gentlemen, as we begin our hearing this evening,

16 I would ask a couple of things:

17 Number one, we -- our rules require us

18 to follow a judicial type hearing. This does not

19 permit response from the audience as clapping or

20 cheering or those kind of things. You'll have a

21 chance to get up and agree with whatever has been

22 said or echo your opinion.

23 We have a court recorder here. We

24 have to make the Decision on what's in the record.

25 And so we have a technical hearing as well as a

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 public hearing, and everything has to be recorded.

2 So it has to be so the recorder can hear what has

3 been said and who has said it. And so we have to

4 have -- I would appreciate it if you would be

5 orderly this evening so we can get the transcripts

6 correct.

7 Our Decisions that we make can be

8 appealed to the Supreme Court, directly to the

9 Supreme Court of the State, so it's very important

10 that what's in the record is accurate and we have a

11 good record to base the judgment on.

12 Before -- I need to ask, is there any

13 other parties here tonight that we need to take the

14 appearances of?

15 Okay. Thank you. Before we begin,

16 Mr. Miller has asked to take just about 30 seconds.

17 So we'll give you 30 seconds, Mr. Miller.

18 MR. MILLER: Thank you very much,

19 Mr. Chairman.

20 I just wanted to say that the -- there

21 are several officials from both Companies here

22 tonight who are available to the public during the

23 recess that we might have to answer any further

24 questions that they might have.

25 And also to say that both Companies

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 are pleased and anxious to hear the comments of the

2 Company's customers here tonight. And in that

3 regard, it's my feeling that cross-examination

4 either in a friendly or an adverse way of people who

5 take the time and effort to come to a public hearing

6 is disrespectful to the energy it took for them to

7 appear. So we do not really intend to cross-examine

8 the witnesses this evening, either in a friendly or

9 an adverse way.

10 From what we have heard during the

11 question and answer period, there is some

12 possibility that everything we hear here tonight we

13 may not fully agree with, and if that turns out to

14 be the case, we do have a posthearing brief still to

15 be filed and may provide further comment in that if

16 it's necessary or important.

17 So I just want to make that indication

18 to the Commission and thank the Commission for

19 convening this hearing.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you. I

21 might mention we'd like to welcome the legislators

22 here this evening. We have Senator Hawkins,

23 Senator Geddes, Senator Lee, Senator Richardson,

24 Representative Linford, and -- have I missed any

25 legislators?

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 A VOICE: Cameron. Cameron.

2 MR. RON LAW: Dean Cameron.

3 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Or,

4 Representative Wheeler. Thank you. We appreciate

5 your attendance here this evening.

6 I'd like to mention, and maybe in your

7 questioning and answer you went over this, but I

8 would like to just briefly review the appropriate

9 standards for evaluating the merger, and they're

10 contained in Idaho Code 61-328:

11 Number one is that the public interest

12 will not be adversely affected by this transaction.

13 Number two, that the cost of and rates

14 for supplying electrical service will not increase

15 by the reason of such a transaction.

16 And, three, in this case, that

17 ScottishPower has a bona fide intent and financial

18 ability to operate and maintain electrical property

19 to be used in the public service.

20 The purpose of tonight's hearing is to

21 hear from you people and to get your input and

22 thoughts on this merger, and so we will -- we will

23 begin the hearing this evening. And the format that

24 we will use is, as you entered the building tonight,

25 there was a sign-up sheet that you signed up, and we

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 will call your name off the sign-up sheet. If you

2 did not sign up, we will be taking a break and

3 there's additional sign-up sheets there that you can

4 sign up and then have the chance to get up and make

5 a statement or give your testimony in regard to this

6 merger.

7 I would call your name -- and I think

8 maybe here again, you might have gone over this in

9 the question period -- but you'll come forth,

10 Commissioner Smith will swear you in, you take an

11 oath that you'll tell the truth, and then you'll sit

12 in that chair right there and a deputy attorney

13 general -- Mr. Purdy -- will ask you a couple of

14 questions. He'll ask you your name and ask you to

15 spell your name -- last name -- for the record so

16 that it's accurate, and he will also ask you your

17 address. And then you will be able to make your

18 statement.

19 After you've made your statement,

20 there may be a question from one of the official

21 parties or the Commissioners wanting maybe some

22 clarification on your statement that you made. In

23 that case, we will ask if there's any questions, and

24 if there's none, then you can just go back and sit

25 down. If there's a question, you may have to answer

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 it. And I'll make sure that no one interrogates you

2 or that it will just be a nice little easy

3 question. And if you don't know the answer, you can

4 just say, I don't know.

5 And so anyway, we'll proceed on with

6 it, and we'll call our first person to sign up this

7 evening, Doug Skota (phonetic) I believe.

8 And if I mispronounce a name, I

9 apologize. I'll try do the best I can.

10

11 DOUG SAKOTA,

12 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

13 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

14

15 EXAMINATION

16

17 BY MR. PURDY:

18 Q. Would you please state and spell your

19 name?

20 A. My name is Doug Sakota, and spell it

21 S-A-K-O-T-A, and I -- I'm -- I live at -- reside at

22 1779 North Salem Road, and I use a P.O. Box 163,

23 Rexburg, Idaho, 83440.

24 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead with your

25 statement.

1025

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SAKOTA
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 A. My question has to do with on behalf

2 of the residential customers, and that is that it

3 seems to me that PacifiCorp, in itself, is not being

4 consistent with their rate structuring with other

5 states as well as concerning the local people here,

6 that our rates are as high or higher than the

7 neighboring states; and that the programs that are

8 being administered to the average person, that my

9 concern has to do with that if the PacifiCorp is

10 specifically --

11 I'm not very good. I'm just an

12 average guy. Sorry.

13 COMMISSIONER SMITH: We're just

14 average guys too.

15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Utah Power

16 doesn't seem to address this issue, PacifiCorp

17 definitely doesn't want to address it, and now we

18 get an international power, and my concern is that

19 they don't even want to hear us little people, the

20 average Americans addressing it. That is, the rate

21 structuring that -- I notice there is a different

22 rate structure for Pacific Power in different states

23 that they have their power in.

24 One specific item, and I have a letter

25 here, and it's just a little point, and that is -- I

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SAKOTA
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 brought it up in the question and answer and they

2 said not to bring it up tonight, but I'm going to

3 bring it up -- and that is the time of day program

4 specifically. When I asked the locals here that --

5 how do we go about structuring to be consistent with

6 our neighboring states? They said, Oh, yes, it can

7 be done. It never got done. It never got presented

8 to you folks. So that's why I'm here.

9 And that time of day program, for

10 example, Utah Power's Utah program is consistently

11 the same time and the rate throughout the year,

12 whereas Idaho structures differentiating times: The

13 summer months and wintertime. And they change it

14 from seven a.m. to ten p.m. and everything.

15 So my question is, is the rate

16 structure, they're not even consistent within their

17 own people, the rate users, and I'd like to see a

18 consistency of even a little program such as the

19 time of day or the peak hours going from eight a.m.

20 to ten p.m.

21 And I have a letter here, signed, that

22 I'll present to you at this time.

23 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. We'd like

24 to have you leave that with us.

25 Does that complete your statement?

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SAKOTA
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

3 have any questions for you. Mr. Purdy.

4 MR. PURDY: Thank you.

5

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION

7

8 BY MR. PURDY:

9 Q. So you would like to see Idaho's time

10 of day rate structure match Utah's, or Utah match

11 Idaho, or you don't care as long as they're the

12 same?

13 A. I'd like to see the rate structure be

14 consistent with all the states that PacifiCorp has,

15 and so if ScottishPower takes over, I'd like to see

16 it. I mean, if they're generating electricity for

17 all the states and everything, there should be some

18 semblance of consistency there.

19 As to the time of day, yes, I would

20 like to see that even be -- I've talked to about

21 half a dozen people here, and they get very mixed up

22 on when it switches the time of day program from

23 summer to winter, and then daylight savings time

24 comes in and the dates and times even makes it more

25 confusing.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SAKOTA (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 MR. PURDY: Thank you.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

3 MR. ERIKSSON: No questions.

4 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Miller.

5 Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

6 I have none. Thank you for your

7 testimony.

8 (The witness left the stand.)

9 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll now call

10 Senator Mel Richardson.

11

12 SENATOR MEL RICHARDSON,

13 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

14 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

15

16 EXAMINATION

17

18 BY MR. PURDY:

19 Q. Would you please state and spell your

20 name, sir?

21 A. My name is -- is it on? There we go.

22 My name is Mel Richardson, R-I-C-H-A-R-D-S-O-N.

23 Q. And your address?

24 A. 3725 Brookfield Lane, Idaho Falls, or

25 Ammon.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Q. Thank you. Go ahead.

2 A. Thank you.

3 I would like to first of all thank the

4 PUC for this opportunity. I was very disappointed

5 when the initial meeting was moved to Boise, where

6 so many of us could not get there for testimony. So

7 I'm very thankful that the meeting was put here

8 tonight so we could be here.

9 I would like to say that I've had the

10 opportunity of working with all members of this

11 Commission in one capacity or another and I have the

12 greatest respect for them, and I want you to know

13 that we do appreciate the time that you're taking.

14 We do have a lot of respect in what you're doing. I

15 do have some consideration though.

16 Many, many years ago, we moved into

17 the Idaho Falls area, and we lived in Idaho Falls

18 under Idaho Falls Power and things went well.

19 We decided we wanted to build a home,

20 so we went to Ammon. And then we found out we're

21 going to be under Utah Power and it was not the same

22 rates that we'd been experiencing in the past. But

23 we felt we could probably handle this all right.

24 Our contractor told us, What you need

25 to do is stop fighting soot and dust and all the

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 things that come with it; you need to go with a Gold

2 Medallion home, which is electric power. You don't

3 have all of the cleaning problems. You have control

4 of the heat and everything is beautiful.

5 And so we looked at it, we looked at

6 the rates, and thought, This is great, we're going

7 to do it. So we signed up and went Gold Medallion,

8 we're very happy with it and we're very happy with

9 the Utah Power and Light people. We found them to

10 be very hard-working and we did appreciate them.

11 But the federal government decided,

12 We're using too much energy, we don't want to

13 encourage people to use energy, we want to cut back,

14 so we're going to do away with the Gold Medallion

15 program; which had given us a special rate for

16 heating our homes. And, suddenly, our rates went

17 completely out of my income and we were very

18 concerned about how we were going to be able to get

19 by.

20 It was then that we put in the

21 fireplace and put in the Elko stove and started

22 heating our house with wood. And it's -- needless

23 to say, it's not a very convenient thing when you

24 talk about getting away with the smoke and the soot

25 and everything when you're heating your home with a

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 wood fire. And so I get up in the middle of the

2 night and bank it and keep the fire going; was not

3 the kind of life we'd anticipated, coming from the

4 power rates we had expected with Gold Medallion.

5 And then things became worse and the

6 rates started going up, and so they took some pity

7 on us and gave us the low peak hour so my wife could

8 wash the clothes and do the work after, what was it,

9 ten, eleven o'clock at night if she wanted to stay

10 up all night long. We could get the kind of rates

11 that we could afford, that we'd been anticipated

12 from the beginning. And so low-peak power became a

13 very hard thing, and as the kids would come along,

14 they'd come off a ball game and want to shower: No,

15 we can't shower until such and such a time. We had

16 to do all of the things that go along with that.

17 And so it continued to go on with one

18 rate increase, another. And I can understand rate

19 increases in the society that we live in, but the

20 thing is that concerns me is now I'm hearing out of

21 Washington people saying, What we need to do is we

22 need to have rates averaged across America. Now

23 these are some people saying that we need to do is

24 average so that one state doesn't have high rates,

25 another state low rates.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 When you look at the averages, Idaho

2 has pretty good rates. So what does that mean?

3 They are not going to come down to Idaho; we'll be

4 going up to other people. And this is something I

5 really don't like the idea on.

6 And so as I worried about rates and I

7 have so many friends who are farmers and they tell

8 me, Mel, if they raise the power rates on us, we're

9 out of business; it's just that serious. It's more

10 competitive than I've ever seen it. The potato

11 prices this last year, you all know what happened,

12 and now we're finding more and more parts of the

13 country now that are coming into potato production,

14 Canada increasing their potato production; and in

15 competitive situations, especially in Canada where

16 there's subsidization to help them, rate increases

17 to our farmers would be absolutely disastrous.

18 And so the things that I worry about

19 are the rates, not only the farmers but to us

20 residents themselves. How are we going to handle

21 this type of a situation?

22 Then I worry about water. We have

23 been talking about cutting out the dams, moving the

24 dams, barging them, and all of the things relative

25 to saving the fish. I'm still concerned about what

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 happens to the water. Now, if ScottishPower takes

2 over the water rights, what does that do to the

3 water rights for the people and the farmers and the

4 people in the Snake River?

5 I'm sure there are answers to many of

6 these things, and I apologize. For two of the last

7 three weeks I've been out of state and not been able

8 to follow a lot of the testimony that's been given,

9 things that have been discussed, but these are

10 things I'm most concerned about: The water rights,

11 the farmer, the rates to the people. These are

12 really -- they're really considered things that I'm

13 very concerned with.

14 Now, I did sign a letter with several

15 other legislators, and I thank Senator Bob Geddes

16 for his help on this, but this letter just asks that

17 the PUC hold it until -- go slowly on this until we

18 have a chance to make sure we have all of the facts,

19 we have all of the information.

20 I'm not opposed to ScottishPower; I

21 don't know ScottishPower, I don't know much about

22 them. If I had my choices, our power rates would be

23 conducted by local companies here in Idaho. If they

24 couldn't be in Idaho, then at least America.

25 Now, when we're talking about going

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 out of the country, the world, as far as I'm

2 concerned, as I've been told, this is the first time

3 utility rates have ever been run by a country

4 outside of America. What does that mean? I don't

5 know. I'm hoping that the PUC or the work that

6 you're doing will give us the answers.

7 I know in my radio show we've had a

8 lot of calls from people who are very concerned.

9 People who are not even on Utah Power are calling in

10 to say, Hey, we're concerned about what's going to

11 happen to the rest of us. What happens here could

12 happen in other places, and it could move into

13 several industries, some of the Motions that are

14 taking place in Washington. I am concerned.

15 The merger -- usually in a merger, two

16 people come together and both of them have some

17 power, but it sounds to me like PacifiCorp loses the

18 power, ScottishPower becomes the power, and their

19 decisions will be made by ScottishPower. I don't

20 know if that's true. That seems to be the comments

21 that I've received. I'd really like to know who

22 makes the decisions, who has the ability to make

23 those decisions.

24 And as a ratepayer, I am concerned. I

25 would like to see these things -- something as

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 important as utilities, we can't get by without

2 them. I guess we could turn back to pioneer days,

3 but I don't think the world is ready for that. So

4 we must have them. I think we need to have control.

5 We want to know, what are you going to do about

6 rates, what kind of security do we have on the

7 rates, what kind of things do we have to look

8 forward to? And with honest answers, I think the

9 people of Idaho will make the right decisions, and I

10 think they'll have the support from the people of

11 Idaho if we're given the facts and given the

12 information so we know where we're going and we can

13 work with the merger, whoever it is going to be

14 involved. If we can work together, then I think the

15 people of Idaho can survive. And I would just

16 encourage the PUC to please take your time in moving

17 slowly and making sure that the public has the

18 answers, just as you have them too.

19 I believe that probably is all the

20 issues that I'd have and I'd answer any questions.

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

22 have any questions for the Senator. Mr. Purdy.

23 MR. PURDY: I do.

24

25

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2

3 BY MR. PURDY:

4 Q. You have a great voice. It's obvious

5 that you have a radio show.

6 A. Thank you.

7 Q. Were you here during the question and

8 answer session?

9 A. I'm sorry, I just caught the last two

10 questions.

11 Q. Okay. I would just encourage you, if

12 you're interested, to speak either with myself,

13 Rick Sterling, or perhaps somebody from the Company

14 about water rights after the hearing this evening.

15 A. Now you're representing --

16 Q. I represent the Commission Staff in

17 this case.

18 A. The Commission. Fine.

19 I'm hoping that I can get a member of

20 the Commission, along with Senator Geddes, on our

21 radio show in the morning and get some questions

22 from our listeners there, so any of our three

23 Commissioners are certainly welcome tomorrow

24 morning.

25 Q. Good luck.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll probably

2 still be here in the morning --

3 (Laughter.)

4 THE WITNESS: Could I just leave a

5 mike?

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: -- if everybody

7 is going to testify.

8 Mr. Eriksson.

9 MR. ERIKSSON: No questions.

10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Miller.

11 MR. MILLER: No.

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Budge.

13 Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

14 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

16 your testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. I

18 appreciate the time.

19 (The witness left the stand.)

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Leslie Folsom.

21

22

23

24

25

1038

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RICHARDSON (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 LESLIE FOLSOM,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Would you please state and spell your

9 name?

10 A. My name is Leslie -- L-E-S-L-I-E --

11 Folsom -- F-, as in Frank, O-L-S-O-M, as in Mary.

12 Address is 2750 Sawtooth Street in Idaho Falls,

13 Idaho, 83406.

14 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead.

15 A. Okay. I just -- I have a couple

16 questions. I have one because of the question and

17 answer period -- or, statement, I guess I should

18 say.

19 Prior to -- one of the gentlemen

20 mentioned that Utah Power or PacifiCorp was --

21 contacted him to purchase his shares back. I've had

22 one instance of that situation happening with me,

23 not with PacifiCorp but with another company, and of

24 that instance, I held on to mine and the thing has

25 went absolutely astronomical.

1039

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING FOLSOM
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 My concern is this: Is ScottishPower

2 in this today as power, or is this a stock move

3 only?

4 I am quite concerned with that

5 situation. I understand when you're trying to buy

6 back shares, there's more going on than what meets

7 our layman eyes, and that does concern us some.

8 As for some of the comments that

9 ScottishPower stated that they would be here to

10 improve the facilities that Utah Power and Light has

11 done of about ten percent, they said they would

12 do -- or this $50 rebate thing and stuff like

13 that -- I'm just concerned that ScottishPower might

14 not realize how bad the power lines and stuff are --

15 no offense to Utah Power -- but they have out there

16 right now, and if they're willing to accept the type

17 of repairs and stuff that are going to have to be

18 initiated and the money to be put in to get these

19 things up to code and where they're rectified.

20 There is also the PUC mentioned that

21 they looked to make a reasonable fee for like

22 ScottishPower coming in or PacifiCorp coming in,

23 that everybody has a right to a certain amount of

24 profit. I'm in favor of that situation, but if

25 ScottishPower comes in and does not rectify or do it

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING FOLSOM
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 in a manner that keeps the costs down -- which they

2 should, which as big as this is going to become,

3 this merger will become -- are we going to end up

4 with increase in rates just because of their

5 inefficiencies? And, again, I don't know anything

6 about ScottishPower, so I don't know how efficient

7 they are, but it's an avenue that I think we need to

8 look at before we allow them the rights to take over

9 our power sources.

10 We also need to know about

11 deregulation that is on the table. Twenty states

12 have accepted it. We have to know that in the

13 future if we get deregulation by states, if our

14 legislators finally look at the situation and

15 ScottishPower has our water right controls, are we

16 going to be able to have an avenue to use for

17 regulation to the right of the people so that we can

18 go to Idaho Power? Is Idaho Power going to be at

19 the whim of ScottishPower because the water rights

20 have all been turned over? So I need -- I would

21 like to know more about that.

22 Oregon and Wyoming got guarantees or

23 rate adjustments. I think Idaho -- I know we're

24 small, but we do -- we are grass-roots people, no

25 matter how we look at it. Wyoming is too. I feel

1041

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING FOLSOM
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 like we need to have some kind of basis if

2 ScottishPower is sold that they are going to be able

3 to do this in a very efficient way. They should

4 grant us some kind of guarantees that enables our

5 rates to go down, because right now it's not being

6 done as efficient as it needs to be, due to the fact

7 that Idaho Power can run so much lower. And I do

8 know Idaho Power's hydro and Utah Power is run

9 mainly coal, but as a consumer, as a final entity,

10 we don't care; the power comes still in the same

11 form.

12 Our state happens to be one of the

13 biggest water producers in the United States. Why

14 do we not have the right to use that to our

15 advantage?

16 And I'm also a little concerned, is

17 that why ScottishPower is wanting us, because of

18 those water rights, so that they would be able to

19 use those? I don't know.

20 And I think that's basically

21 everything I have that I'd like to mention.

22 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Let's see

23 if we have some questions.

24 I might mention that we will have a

25 break in a little bit, and I would encourage you to

1042

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING FOLSOM
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ask the Staff or the different parties some of those

2 questions that you did bring up. I think they would

3 be able to give you answers so that you know then

4 better how you felt about it.

5 Let's see. Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

6 Mr. Miller. Commissioner.

7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I guess I just

8 wanted to say thank you so much for your thoughtful

9 comments, because I think you did hit on the areas

10 that the statute requires us to investigate, and

11 just wanted to offer a comment in regards to the

12 difference in costs.

13 One of the big cost items in providing

14 electric service is the cost of the distribution

15 lines, the actual lines that take the power to the

16 end user; and if you look at the differences in the

17 service areas of Idaho Power and Utah Power and

18 Light, you might see some dramatic differences there

19 in terms of customer density, the actual geography,

20 and the cost of maintaining and installing

21 facilities is quite different.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you.

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

25 your testimony.

1043

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING FOLSOM
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 (The witness left the stand.)

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Phyllis Ker.

3

4 PHYLLIS KER,

5 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

7

8 EXAMINATION

9

10 BY MR. PURDY:

11 Q. Please state and spell your name,

12 ma'am.

13 A. My name is Phyllis Ker --

14 P-H-Y-L-L-I-S. K-E-R is the last name -- 1810 Dove

15 Drive in Idaho Falls, Idaho. I am a residential

16 user. I am the little guy. I don't have a farm to

17 run. I just try to keep my lights on and it warm in

18 the winter. And I have some concerns -- real

19 concerns -- about this.

20 I guess if I want to get to the very

21 bottom of it, my first thing would be just what I

22 have heard from other people here, is the fact that

23 I have never felt that it was a good idea, whether

24 we're doing it and other countries agree to it or

25 not, if we bought something else. That does not

1044

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 mean that America has to sell off its natural

2 resources.

3 And I -- I am a farmer's daughter.

4 I -- it was always a business that put shoes on our

5 feet, took care of us. They're having a hard time.

6 I'm not involved in farming, but I know if we lose a

7 way to produce a way to eat, we're all going to be

8 in trouble. They're having troubles already and one

9 of their big troubles are rates.

10 As a small customer, I'm already

11 making up for the fact that we have irrigators in

12 our states. That's what they have told me on

13 previous occasions when I've talked to them why my

14 rates go up in the summer and everything is because

15 of irrigation. Well, I support farming and the

16 irrigation rights and everything, but I'm also

17 trying to keep my lights on.

18 The second point that they have here

19 that the PUC needs to consider about whether -- I

20 think the first one is about whether we would be

21 adversely affected; I think we've kind of addressed

22 that -- the second one, the cost and rates for

23 supplying service will not be increased by reason of

24 the merger, I think that's kind of a twist on words.

25 I think if your rates are too high to begin with,

1045

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 what does it matter to me? I'm trying to pay the

2 bill. What does it matter to me it won't be

3 increased? It will be. It has been all the way.

4 And if you're high enough that you didn't have to

5 take a rate increase for ten years, you've been too

6 high, too long.

7 And I -- I just echo as the small guy

8 here that we go quietly into this and with some real

9 thought as to who is really paying for this. You

10 know, it's me that gets the bill. It's the farmer

11 out there. We're the last people on the totem pole

12 that were even consulted. That they took our

13 hearings to the other side of the state and yet your

14 users are primarily over here, we didn't get to hear

15 the technical. We had to rely on this kind of

16 stuff. We'd like to be better educated, and I ask

17 the PUC to give us the time to get better educated,

18 to feel better about the decision, and to feel like

19 you're listening to us over here.

20 You don't want to address, I

21 understand, that rate question, but how can you take

22 over a company and say all these things you're going

23 to do and not even know what your profits are going

24 to be or where they're going to come from? I feel

25 they're going to come from us, and I think we

1046

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 deserve answers.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

3 complete your statement?

4 THE WITNESS: It does complete.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

6 have any questions. Mr. Purdy.

7 MR. PURDY: I'll just offer myself and

8 my two Staff people up for any questions you have

9 during break or after the hearing.

10 THE WITNESS: What about putting it so

11 everybody who's here can hear it, rather than

12 individual conversations?

13 MR. PURDY: I'll be around as long as

14 it takes.

15 THE WITNESS: Okay.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

17 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

18 A VOICE: We can't hear you.

19 A VOICE: Thank you.

20 A VOICE: You're welcome.

21 Can you hear me? We can't hear you;

22 stand up.

23 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Do you want me to

24 do it?

25 I guess I just wanted to note that we

1047

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 also want you to be well-informed about this, and

2 the Commission was able to provide during the

3 hearing --

4 A VOICE: Please stand up; maybe we

5 can hear you.

6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: The Commission

7 was able to provide during the hearings a live audio

8 streaming of the proceedings if you had Internet

9 access, and we also archived it on our Web site. So

10 if your local public library offers access to

11 hearing it --

12 THE WITNESS: There are a lot of us

13 that are not using Internet, I'm sorry, but a lot of

14 us are not in the stream like we should be. We

15 don't have that kind of access. A lot of us are

16 just regular people --

17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: -- that don't have

19 access to that.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

21 your testimony.

22 And I might mention that I would pay a

23 compliment to the reporter at the Post Register that

24 did cover the technical hearing. In the articles

25 that I've read, I think he covered a lot of the

1048

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 issues that was mentioned there.

2 Unfortunately, if you can't get into

3 the Internet, hopefully more information will come

4 out that will give you a better understanding and

5 knowledge of this.

6 (The witness left the stand.)

7 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Our next person

8 we have is Frank Jenkins.

9

10 FRANK JENKINS,

11 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

12 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

13

14 EXAMINATION

15

16 BY MR. PURDY:

17 Q. Sir, would you please state and spell

18 your name?

19 A. My name is Frank Jenkins. I live at

20 256 West Fourth South, Rexburg, Idaho.

21 Statement I'd like to make -- and I

22 made it earlier. Apparently, the statement or the

23 questions and answers that was asked in the

24 preperiod didn't mean a thing, just went over our

25 heads or wasn't recorded or didn't mean a thing, so

1049

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING JENKINS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I want to restate my positions on this.

2 I am absolutely against this foreign

3 buyout which is number one in the nation. This is

4 the first time in the United States that this has

5 ever happened. And I think it's treason for -- to

6 sell our natural resources down the river to

7 Pacific -- or, to this Scottish company. Those

8 papers or this paper that it's written on don't mean

9 a thing without the water to run those turbines.

10 And to sell our natural resources to a foreign

11 country is un- -- unspeakable; it's beyond my

12 thinking.

13 And if this goes through, I mentioned

14 in the earlier statement that you can tell -- this

15 is addressed to you people, the Public Utilities

16 Commission, that you can tell Mr. Kempthorne that he

17 won't have another period the next time around.

18 (Applause.)

19 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

20 complete your statement?

21 THE WITNESS: No.

22 In the earlier statement, it was

23 made -- it was stated that there was no money being

24 paid to the people that was taking over this

25 Pacific -- or, this ScottishPower, by

1050

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING JENKINS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ScottishPower. And the one man -- and he don't

2 happen to be here right now. I don't know where he

3 went -- ScottishPower. Let's see, he is too; it's

4 that man right there. Yes.

5 What is your name?

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Sir. Sir. Make

7 your statement.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. He made the

9 statement that they would pay about $6 million. And

10 it was written in the Post Register that it was

11 $20 million to be paid to the PacifiCorp leaders,

12 11 million by the public -- by the ratepayers. And

13 he stated it was only six million.

14 The rates will not increase is what he

15 said.

16 I too, like Mr. Richardson over here,

17 I signed up under the Gold Medallion deal and I got

18 the runaround the same as he was. My understanding

19 on the thing was it was to last for life, but it

20 hasn't. And the rate change is going to be the same

21 with ScottishPower, you can just bet your bottom

22 dollar.

23 And these donations that the man with

24 ScottishPower mentioned that was so great and going

25 to be given to the State of Idaho or whoever has got

1051

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING JENKINS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 to be paid for by somebody. It's not given away

2 free by ScottishPower. It has to be paid by the

3 tax -- or, the -- no, no -- it's got to be paid by

4 the ratepayer.

5 I too am a residential payer. I also

6 have an apartment house, and I also own a Texaco

7 service station. If my gas goes up one lousy penny,

8 my customer goes across the street. We cannot go

9 across the street after this is transferred to

10 ScottishPower. We are stuck. We are tied in.

11 There is no way we can get out.

12 And, again, I'd like to tell you, and

13 if you can't tell, I am mad.

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

15 complete your statement?

16 THE WITNESS: That would be it.

17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

18 have any questions.

19 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson. Mr. Miller.

20 Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner.

21 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No questions.

22 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Commissioner.

23 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: None.

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

25 your testimony.

1052

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING JENKINS
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 (The witness left the stand.)

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll now call

3 Keith Anderson.

4 MR. KEITH ANDERSON: I'll waive my

5 turn. It's been pretty well covered, so I don't

6 need to have a turn.

7 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you,

8 Mr. Anderson.

9 Earl Beck.

10 MR. EARL BECK: I'll do the same thing

11 he did. My questions have been answered.

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay.

13 Timothy Schwartz (phonetic).

14 MR. TIMOTHY SHURTZ: It's Shurtz.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Oh, okay. Need

16 to take my glasses off.

17

18 TIMOTHY J. SHURTZ,

19 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

20 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

21

22 EXAMINATION

23

24 BY MR. PURDY:

25 Q. Probably know the drill by now. Your

1053

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 name and address, please, sir?

2 A. Timothy Shurtz, S-H-U-R-T-Z. I live

3 at 411 South Main, P.O. Box 397, Firth, Idaho.

4 Q. Thanks. Please go ahead.

5 A. Commissioners -- Commissioners, I

6 would like to voice the feelings of my city

7 government and other local city and county

8 government on the proposed merger of PacifiCorp --

9 the parent company of Utah Power -- and

10 ScottishPower.

11 Let me first by begin -- let me first

12 begin by saying we appreciate the hard-working

13 employees of Utah Power and the day-to-day service

14 they render to Idaho. However, we have come to

15 oppose the merger of PacifiCorp and ScottishPower

16 for the following reasons:

17 One, we feel allowing an oversees

18 company control of a -- an essential service such as

19 power is not in the best interest of the people of

20 Idaho who are served by Utah Power. Why should we

21 allow profits generated by the sale of power in

22 Idaho to be sent overseas?

23 We also feel the rates paid by

24 Utah Power consumers are higher than most other

25 power providers in the area. Why should the

1054

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 residents of Idaho that live in the Utah Power

2 service areas be required to pay higher energy rates

3 when other residents of Idaho enjoy much lower

4 rates?

5 Third, we are already being told to

6 expect further -- expect another round of increases

7 once the merger is complete. How can we -- how can

8 anyone say the merger is going to be good for the

9 residents of Idaho?

10 I feel that we should be allowed, with

11 this Commission's help, to seek other providers of

12 this essential service who are willing to work with

13 the Idaho community to provide power at a lower cost

14 to all the residents of Idaho, and by doing so,

15 improve the standard of living for all the residents

16 of the great state of Idaho.

17 Thank you.

18 I am on the City Council of the City

19 of Firth. I -- before I left, I spoke with the

20 Mayor of Shelley, and I spoke with the City Council

21 of Basalt. I also have the support of the

22 Commissioners of Bingham County. And we have strong

23 feelings that we are paying our financing outside

24 profits to go overseas, and at the same time, within

25 Bingham County itself, we have Idaho Power one

1055

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ratepayer down -- you go a block and people are

2 paying less money. There is just some strong

3 feelings that we are not being served by our elected

4 government on the State level.

5 And I would hope that the Legislature,

6 who's probably responsible to see that deregulation

7 comes, takes action to help us, because, as a City

8 representative, I have to -- I have to wonder, are

9 we, because of our -- the people that are on fixed

10 incomes, am I going to have to -- we provide water.

11 Am I going to have to turn off their water because

12 they can't afford to pay because the power rates are

13 too high? And we're caught in that dilemma all the

14 time. And we are expected to provide the up-front

15 services other than power. Idaho Falls provides

16 power, but we're expected to provide those up-front

17 services. And they come looking -- the people of

18 the City come looking at us, saying, Why are we

19 paying these rates? Why are you signing franchise

20 agreements with Utah Power and we are not getting in

21 anything in return?

22 My feeling is that it's time for the

23 Legislature and the Public Utilities Commission to

24 work together to ensure that we have -- in a free

25 enterprise system, we have the best and most

1056

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 reasonable rates possible.

2 Thank you.

3 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

4 have any questions. Mr. Purdy.

5

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION

7

8 BY MR. PURDY:

9 Q. Did I understand you to say that you

10 are the Mayor of Firth, or did I imagine that?

11 A. I am the City Councilmember of Firth.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 A. And the City Council has approved me

14 to be here tonight.

15 Q. Thanks.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

17 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

18 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I'll wait

19 for a break, Commissioner.

20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I'll weigh in.

21 THE WITNESS: I might also add that

22 the -- we're in the southeastern portion of the

23 thing, and Pocatello is probably more -- more likely

24 where we're going to be tomorrow. There are other

25 governments, including Bear Lake is also --

1057

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 County -- conferred their wishes on -- in agreement

2 with the statement that I've just read. So there

3 will be other governments signing on to this as

4 well.

5

6 EXAMINATION

7

8 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:

9 Q. Mr. Shurtz, I guess I want to be sure

10 I understand. Are you testifying in favor of what

11 we call industry restructuring, or deregulation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And how -- how do you imagine -- what

14 is your concept of how it would work here to make

15 things better?

16 A. Well, when you have Utah Power

17 servicing one area and you have Idaho Power down the

18 block servicing another area, it would seem

19 reasonable that a individual should be able, with

20 the consent of the power provider, of course, to

21 choose the power that they choose to buy.

22 Q. Are you anticipating that new

23 distribution lines would be spread by the new

24 provider, or that you would take your distribution

25 service from the current provider?

1058

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 A. No, I'm anticipating that by vote of

2 the Legislature and support, that the people in each

3 area would be permitted to work with the power

4 provider they choose, and the current provider would

5 possibly be requested to sell their transmission

6 lines.

7 Q. Distribution.

8 A. Their distribution. Excuse me.

9 Q. Yeah. Transmission is the high

10 voltage; distribution is what gets it to your

11 house.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. So in other words, kind of a forced

14 sale of the distribution to a new provider?

15 A. I don't look at it as a forced sale.

16 I look at it as providing the local residents who

17 have paid. Those lines wouldn't be there if the

18 local resident -- if the demand had not been there

19 originally and the local residents had not have paid

20 the money for those lines. Nothing is free; we

21 understand that.

22 Q. Right.

23 A. And I can see and I can also conceive

24 that Utah Power -- if there was a trade-off between

25 other power providers, Utah Power would have a right

1059

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 to demand a fair market price --

2 Q. A compensation?

3 A. -- for the cost of those lines.

4 Q. Right. My other question had to do

5 with city and being responsive to your citizens in

6 the city, and have you thought about

7 municipalization or have you heard of that? I mean,

8 a city can municipalize, but of course you have the

9 same problem in providing compensation for the

10 facilities that you're taking.

11 A. We have a little -- almost 500 people

12 within the city of Firth. We have a hard time

13 providing one police officer to patrol the streets.

14 For us to buy the infrastructure of the power system

15 would take a lot more. We need a collective

16 Bingham County or larger entity together to afford

17 such a move as to buy out, let's say, municipalize.

18 Q. You'd almost need a power district or

19 a cooperative?

20 A. Or we'd have to annex everything

21 that's not nailed down.

22 Q. Okay. And, finally, my last question

23 had to do with the idea of profits going overseas.

24 And, of course, both of these entities are owned by

25 shareholders, and the people who buy the stock are

1060

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 the people who get the profits. So wherever those

2 people reside, that's where the profits go.

3 A. But corporate profits still are going

4 to go to Scotland.

5 Q. If shareholders reside there.

6 A. Yes. But it wouldn't be called

7 ScottishPower if it wasn't mainly based in Scotland.

8 Q. And to the extent that shareholders

9 reside in the United States, profits go there also.

10 A. But there is still some moneys that

11 end up enriching or growing ScottishPower.

12 Q. Thank you for your testimony.

13 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I have one

14 question.

15

16 EXAMINATION

17

18 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:

19 Q. You talked about the rates in

20 Idaho Power. Are you familiar with the

21 Idaho Power's rates and Utah Power and Light's

22 rates?

23 A. I -- I know that Utah Power and Light

24 rates are significantly higher. I have not sat down

25 because I have been unfortunate enough not to live

1061

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 in Idaho Power, but I have had conversations with

2 the people that do get Idaho Power and I have had

3 conversation with representatives of Idaho Power,

4 and I know that our rates are significantly higher.

5 But I wouldn't point out Idaho Power specifically.

6 You have Falls River, and you also have the City of

7 Idaho Falls and other cities that do control their

8 own rates, and their rates still are significantly

9 lower.

10 Q. Would it surprise you if you were told

11 that two years ago, that Idaho Power's irrigation

12 rates were higher in Idaho than Utah Power and

13 Light's?

14 A. I'm not familiar with that. I'm

15 sorry, I don't know.

16 Q. You might look into it.

17 A. I live in the city; I don't live on

18 the farm.

19 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your

20 testimony.

21 (The witness left the stand.)

22 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll now move

23 to Representative Golden Linford.

24 REPRESENTATIVE LINFORD: Mr. Chairman,

25 Senator Lee is coming up too, because we have a

1062

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SHURTZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 joint statement to make. We'll each make some

2 preliminary remarks and I'll read a joint statement,

3 and Senator Lee will make --

4 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: That's fine.

5 COMMISSIONER SMITH: We'd be happy to

6 have you together.

7 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Bring the other

8 chair.

9 SENATOR LEE: Do you want me to sit up

10 there?

11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: We can do you

12 together. We've done that before.

13

14 REPRESENTATIVE GOLDEN C. LINFORD

15 and SENATOR ROBERT R. LEE,

16 appearing as public witnesses, being first duly

17 sworn, were examined and testified as follows:

18

19 EXAMINATION

20

21 BY MR. PURDY:

22 Q. Go ahead, sir.

23 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: I have copies of

24 the statement I'm going to make. I have copies for

25 each of you. Would that be helpful?

1063

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: That would be

2 fine.

3 Q. BY MR. PURDY: Sir, just to get the

4 record accurate, would you please first state and

5 spell your name?

6 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Yes, I plan to do

7 that.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: My name is

10 Golden Linford, L-I-N-F-O-R-D. Live at 2120 West

11 4200 South, Rexburg.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: This is the

14 official letterhead, and these are copies.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Maybe where

16 we're having a joint statement, you'd also get

17 Mr. Lee on record. Has he been sworn in?

18 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Yes.

19 Q. BY MR. PURDY: Sir, would you please

20 state your name and address?

21 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Yes. My name is

22 Robert Lee. I'm at 1330 Barney Dairy Road, Rexburg,

23 Idaho, and I'm a senator from District 27,

24 representing people from Madison County and part of

25 Fremont County.

1064

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Chairman Hansen,

3 Commissioners Smith and Kjellander, we appreciate

4 you being here. As has been said, I think the fact

5 that all three of you are here is indicative of your

6 interest to this issue. I think this roomful of

7 people also indicates that there is considerable

8 interest in this proposed merger.

9 I might just mention that I am a

10 customer of Utah Power/PacifiCorp, have been for, in

11 effect, all my life. I have been an irrigation

12 pumper for some 35 years, irrigating from 2,000 to

13 4,000 acres of land. Not so involved at the present

14 time, but my land is being purchased and some being

15 leased.

16 I'm also a commercial user, one of the

17 larger commercial users on the system. We use -- we

18 have a potato processing plant and we use several

19 hundred thousand dollars of electric power a year.

20 So I am very much a user and very

21 interested in what takes place at this merger.

22 I'm also a State Representative

23 representing District 27, and a member of the

24 Restructuring Committee, along with Senator Lee, as

25 I'm sure all of you know.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Utah Power/PacifiCorp has been a major

2 part of my life, very important part of the lives of

3 I'm sure everyone here and all the communities in

4 Eastern Idaho. It's been a major presence in all of

5 these communities. The individuals that have served

6 with Utah Power have been well-known and

7 well-respected in all the communities all of these

8 years. And this, of course, changed somewhat when

9 PacifiCorp purchased Utah Power, and probably by

10 necessity, there was a reduction in service, there

11 was a reduction in the presence of staff and others,

12 so that things have changed. We realize that things

13 have changed in every company, and much of it by

14 necessity, but ever since PacifiCorp has been the

15 owner, there has still been good service. We want

16 to make that clear. There, of course, have been the

17 usual power outages and the power bumps and those

18 kinds of things, but we've all experienced quick

19 response, an attempt on the part of the system to be

20 responsive to the problems that have been very real.

21 Reliability is becoming increasingly

22 more critical. We're becoming a more technical

23 society. We're depending on the reliability factor

24 more and more, and, of course, that has to be

25 considered in all of this discussion.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 PacifiCorp, I might add, has been very

2 helpful to Senator Lee and to me as we worked with

3 the Bonneville Power Administration in the

4 residential exchange program, the BPA credits as

5 some of you call them. That credit was being phased

6 out, and we worked with these two entities during

7 the last few years and were able to spread that out

8 without much rate shock as the irrigators would have

9 experienced. In fact, this year, we've had that

10 spread out to eight percent increase a year, where

11 it could have been about 45 percent all in one jump.

12 This year, because of weather circumstances, that's

13 only going to be four percent. So PacifiCorp and

14 Bonneville Power have been very cooperative working

15 with us and attempting to relieve some of that rate

16 shock.

17 I might just say that ScottishPower

18 executives and staff have also made themselves

19 available, and have been willing to meet with us and

20 work with us and hear our concerns, and we have

21 expressed to them the very deep concerns that we

22 have had over the merger, particularly in terms of

23 rate disparity and those kinds of issues.

24 And we might report to the Commission

25 that as you can judge here by this audience tonight,

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 that there have been a large number of people

2 contact both of us during the past, particularly the

3 last week or two, with very deep concerns,

4 particularly over the foreign ownership factor, and

5 you were hearing some of those tonight.

6 So with those preliminary statements,

7 I might just say there's also some concern over the

8 water rights issue some of you have mentioned.

9 Senator Lee will discuss that in more detail,

10 particularly on the Bear River system, but that also

11 extends to a lesser degree but as importantly to the

12 Snake River itself. There are some water rights on

13 the Snake River being held by Utah Power/PacifiCorp.

14 So, Mr. Chairman, Commission, this is

15 the statement that we would like to present to you,

16 and you already have the docket number:

17 Dear Commissioners -- and this is

18 speaking for both Senator Lee and myself -- both of

19 us serve as members of the Special Legislative

20 Committee on Electrical Restructuring or sometimes

21 called the Deregulation Committee, and have been

22 involved in studying those issues for three years.

23 More recently, we have had particular interest in

24 the proposed ScottishPower acquisition of

25 PacifiCorp. However, we write this letter and make

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
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1 these comments as individuals and as Legislators

2 representing District 27, which is all of Madison

3 County and part of Fremont County, rather than as

4 representing the Electrical Restructuring Committee.

5 We consider this, as all of these

6 folks will agree, to be a critical issue and of

7 great importance to those we represent and to Idaho,

8 as we live in a very competitive environment.

9 Under Idaho law, to gain approval of

10 the merger, the joint Applicants PacifiCorp and

11 ScottishPower must show -- and this has been stated

12 earlier -- that the merger is in the public

13 interest; that the merger will not have an adverse

14 effect on rates; and that ScottishPower has the

15 financial ability and intent to operate the system

16 in the public interest.

17 In this case, ScottishPower has

18 refused to provide any guarantee or promise to

19 ratepayers that rates will go down, that they will

20 stay the same, or that they will not increase. They

21 simply say that rates will go up less than they

22 otherwise would have or will go down faster than

23 they otherwise would have. We feel this showing is

24 not adequate as a matter of law and is not capable

25 of verification.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 We have met with representatives of

2 ScottishPower and PacifiCorp on a number of

3 occasions to express our concerns and to hear their

4 proposals. We don't doubt their sincerity in their

5 belief that superior service and rates will be the

6 result of a merger. However, there have been no

7 concrete proposals come from these discussions. We

8 believe it is in the public interest to know where

9 we are going, and not in the public interest to be

10 in the dark regarding this merger.

11 Our concerns over the disparity of

12 rates from Utah Power and PacifiCorp in Eastern

13 Idaho, coupled with reliable service, have been the

14 center of our discussions with ScottishPower. We

15 believe the approval of the merger should be

16 conditioned on agreements to address this disparity

17 as compared to rates in other areas serviced by

18 Utah Power and PacifiCorp.

19 As part of the merger, ScottishPower

20 and PacifiCorp were directed to address the

21 disparity in irrigation rates. Eastern Idaho

22 irrigators not only pay more than their neighbors on

23 Idaho Power, but also substantially more than

24 PacifiCorp's own irrigation customers in the

25 surroundings states of Utah, Oregon, Washington, and

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Wyoming. ScottishPower refused to address this,

2 simply stating that this is -- this was a general

3 rate case matter that would have to be addressed in

4 the next case.

5 Indeed, it appears that

6 ScottishPower's purchase offer includes provisions

7 which will force future rate increases. The one --

8 the $1.8 billion bid premium, the $20 million golden

9 parachute severance package for PacifiCorp

10 executives, the bonus and retention package totaling

11 $15 million, the $5 million payment to PacifiCorp

12 shareholders, and the $5 billion in unsecured debt

13 appear to be a heavy burden for ratepayers. In

14 other words, the ratepayers assume all the risks and

15 receive none of the benefits.

16 ScottishPower has said that service

17 will be improved and seek to prove that by offering

18 payments to customers of $50 if service is not

19 restored within 24 hours. That is a worthless offer

20 in Idaho, where we are accustomed to service being

21 restored in a few hours. A center pivot irrigating

22 130 acres of potatoes in sandy soil cannot be down

23 for 24 hours without severe damage to the crop.

24 Outages of 24 hours are unacceptable in our economy,

25 and compensation should be in the thousands of

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1 dollars.

2 PacifiCorp has already reduced service

3 personnel to the bare bones, and we fail to see how

4 ScottishPower can acclaimed -- can achieve a claimed

5 efficiency without reducing service.

6 In addition, we feel it is appropriate

7 to impose a rate cap for three to five years at

8 existing levels. A cap means that rates would not

9 go above existing levels, but could go down if a

10 rate decrease is appropriate now or in the future.

11 This is better than a rate freeze, which would leave

12 rates at existing levels but would not provide the

13 opportunity for rate relief.

14 Also, we feel that a condition should

15 be included in unrestricted most nation -- most

16 favored nations clause which will provide that Idaho

17 would get the same benefits of any stipulation or

18 agreement ScottishPower enters into in any other

19 state to secure its approval.

20 Public comments to us indicate

21 opposition to the merger in general, but we believe

22 agreement to address rate disparity and a rate cap

23 will satisfy most of these concerns. The merger

24 should not be approved unless these conditions are

25 met.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Thank you.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you. Does

3 that complete your statement?

4 WITNESS LINFORD: Yes.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Did you want

6 Senator Lee to make a statement before I see if

7 there's any questions for you, Representative?

8 WITNESS LINFORD: Mr. Chairman, that

9 would be your prerogative.

10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay, let's see

11 if we have any questions for our Representative.

12 Mr. Purdy.

13

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION

15

16 BY MR. PURDY:

17 Q. Just so that the record is clear and I

18 understand, you are not opposed to the merger so

19 long as those conditions that you enumerated in your

20 statement are satisfied. Is that -- is that a fair

21 statement?

22 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: I would clarify

23 it further by saying there are reservations to a

24 foreign entity being able to take -- be able to

25 acquire the facility. However, our main concern, at

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 least my main concern, is that we address some of

2 the conditions that we've talked about.

3 Q. And did you -- are you aware of the

4 discussion -- discussions that were had during the

5 technical hearing conducted before the Commission

6 earlier regarding the most favored nation provision

7 that ScottishPower has agreed to in this case?

8 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: I did not attend

9 the technical hearings. I read in the paper

10 something to the effect of what you said.

11 Q. Okay. And does that satisfy you or

12 are you familiar enough with --

13 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Well, just only

14 to the extent of what we read and assumed that that

15 was going to be a condition.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. PURDY: No further questions.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

19 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner.

20 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: I do have a

21 question.

22

23

24

25

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 EXAMINATION

2

3 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:

4 Q. Representative Linford, good to see

5 you. Good evening.

6 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Nice to see you.

7 Q. As you were doing your opening

8 statement, you talked about the issue of

9 reliability, which reminded me of a conversation

10 with another large customer of another Idaho

11 electric utility, and in his statement, he somewhat

12 surprised me when he ranked reliability ahead of

13 cost with regards to his concerns for his specific

14 company. And I was wondering, with the size of

15 operation that you have and with the experience that

16 you've seen where you might rank the two,

17 reliability and cost.

18 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Commissioner

19 Kjellander, I think that would be a difficult

20 question to answer. They are both of great

21 importance, no question about it. We are very -- we

22 are in a very competitive situation on price. But

23 if we don't have reliable power, now, with the

24 conditions we have -- and we have literally I guess

25 thousands of electric motors in our business, and

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 very expensive motors on our pumps and so on -- if

2 we get power bumps and spikes and so on, so forth,

3 that take those out, and realizing of course that

4 Mother Nature does have an effect there, that also

5 costs us a great deal of money.

6 But there are other situations in our

7 business office where we have computers and other

8 kinds of technical equipment. Reliability is very

9 important, as we can get into serious trouble, as

10 you know, by having unreliable service. And as

11 you're already aware, there are some businesses,

12 particularly in the chip business, where reliability

13 is probably much more important than cost.

14 Q. I appreciate your testimony, and

15 thanks for your response.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Commissioner.

17

18 EXAMINATION

19

20 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:

21 Q. I just -- just a clarification.

22 Excuse me.

23 I think sometime last year in response

24 to what I remember as being some concerns expressed

25 by -- excuse me -- Legislators, even perhaps

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 yourself, the Commission had indicated to Utah Power

2 and Light that it should file a rate case this year.

3 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Uh-huh.

4 Q. And it seems in your letter that

5 perhaps we should change that signal for the

6 Company, and I wanted to be sure that I understood

7 that perhaps whatever concerns were expressed

8 previously no longer exist.

9 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Well,

10 Commissioner Smith, the Commission itself asked for

11 the rate case, not the Legislature, if you'll

12 remember. In fact, we had some question in our

13 minds about the appropriateness of that, but changed

14 our minds that it probably was justified. We

15 wondered if the rate case should have been held

16 before these hearings on this acquisition or merger.

17 But I don't know that we've changed

18 our minds about the rate case and whether it should

19 be held or not. I think that was a Commission

20 decision.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you.

22

23

24

25

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 EXAMINATION

2

3 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:

4 Q. I have one question:

5 I guess I'm just kind of concerned

6 about the cap in the rate case. Are you suggesting

7 then that with a cap, that you would still favor the

8 Commission having a rate case only with the cap if

9 the rate case showed that the Company was

10 underearning, they couldn't increase their rates for

11 the period of time of the cap, but if you had a rate

12 case and they were overearning, then the rates would

13 go down? Is that kind of what I'm hearing you say,

14 that you visualize the cap working that way?

15 A. BY WITNESS LINFORD: Oh, Chairman

16 Hansen, I think that's correct. If the cap was held

17 and then you had a rate case and determined that

18 there was an overearning taking place, then the

19 rates could go down in that particular instance.

20 Whether that would happen, of course, would have to

21 be determined by the testimony that was presented

22 before the Commission. But that's why we would

23 suggest a cap preferable to a freeze.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay,

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Senator Lee?

2 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Mr. Chairman, members

3 of the Commission, welcome to Rexburg. Glad to see

4 you here. Let me just give a little background, a

5 professional background, so that you'll know where

6 I'm coming from.

7 I'm a registered engineer, civil

8 engineer, been in the irrigation business here

9 for -- was in irrigation here for -- business for

10 about 25 years. Worked closely with Utah Power and

11 Light and a lot of the irrigation expansion that

12 took place in this area, from Newdale up on the

13 Rexburg bench up to Hamer and Mud Lake and so on;

14 and had tremendous rapport and cooperation from the

15 Power Company. We were under tight deadlines to get

16 things completed. We could communicate with them,

17 they were there with the equipment. It was always a

18 very positive experience. We were on a first-name

19 basis with those folks.

20 Then when PacifiCorp merged with, or

21 bought out, I guess -- I don't know the correct

22 term -- whatever -- took over Utah Power and Light,

23 they proceeded to just devastate the service part of

24 it in terms of personnel and equipment.

25 I might add before getting into that

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 that during the Teton Dam flood, Utah Power was

2 heroic in their efforts. They brought equipment

3 from and personnel from Utah, from all of their

4 service area, and concentrated it here in this area

5 in a very short time and restored power, and it was

6 a marvelous thing to see; powerful organization.

7 Then we had the PacifiCorp merger, and

8 as I've indicated, there was a tremendous

9 reduction -- cost-saving reduction -- but there was

10 a loss of a lot of familiarity with personnel. We

11 began to have to communicate with Salt Lake and with

12 Portland, and it was difficult sometimes to get

13 response, not so much on the service but on other

14 aspects of it.

15 And, now, with this particular

16 proposed merger, we're wondering, how can there be

17 more -- more of the same thing on top of what's

18 already been done? We think they're right to the

19 bare bones. And I've even heard comments, Are we

20 going to have to go to Glasgow now to get our power

21 bills resolved? Because that's what's happened with

22 their moving personnel out of and closing down some

23 of these local district offices in Idaho.

24 Well, with that background, I think

25 that -- I think the Utah Power personnel are working

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 very hard to try to do the best they can with

2 everything they have got. And there are ways of

3 getting around calling Salt Lake. If you try hard

4 enough, you can find out the telephone numbers of

5 the local people and get in touch directly with

6 them. But most people don't have that ability.

7 Now, let me go on to the official

8 statement I want to make, and then I want to make

9 another personal statement concerning it. I have

10 copies of the statement here.

11 There's been a lot said about water

12 rights and concern about water rights, and let me

13 tell you that the Legislature and the Electrical

14 Restructuring Committee or vitally interested in

15 that issue, not only with the PacifiCorp area --

16 PacifiCorp/Utah Power area -- but also Idaho Power

17 Company area, and also with the Avista area in the

18 North. In fact, this Friday I'm going to Spokane to

19 talk to the Avista CEO concerning subordination of

20 water rights on a power plant that they had that has

21 prior rights to anything upstream. Very concerned

22 about that.

23 So we are -- we are vitally involved

24 and we are doing the best we can on this issue. In

25 fact -- and I'll go to the statement now:

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 The Interim Legislative Committee on

2 Electrical Restructuring at our last meeting

3 authorized me, as Committee co-chairman, to comment

4 on the water rights aspects of the proposed

5 ScottishPower and PacifiCorp merger. The Committee

6 is concerned that long-standing operations of

7 hydropower facilities which have functioned without

8 jeopardy to other water rights may be altered as a

9 result of the proposed merger.

10 And I -- I won't go into why they are

11 concerned about that; I think you folks know.

12 Representatives of the Department of

13 Water Resources and the Attorney General's office

14 are meeting with PacifiCorp's representatives to

15 craft water rights agreements which will protect

16 water uses in the Bear River and in the Snake River

17 Basin.

18 I might say for the benefit of the

19 audience, we have a couple of Utah Power and Light

20 power production facilities in this area -- one at

21 Ashton and one at St. Anthony -- and there are

22 rights upstream that are junior, particularly

23 groundwater rights, to those particular power

24 plants. So -- and the same thing is true in the

25 Bear River: There are a number of power plants

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P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 there, and we were concerned about them being --

2 that they would be superior to the upstream

3 irrigation rights.

4 The Committee urges the Commission --

5 and this is the important part -- urges the

6 Commission to take no action on the proposed merger

7 until the parties -- and I'm referring here to the

8 Attorney General's Office, Department of Water

9 Resources, and PacifiCorp/ScottishPower -- until

10 they have reached agreement on the water rights

11 issues.

12 We're saying don't take any action on

13 that, please, we beg you, until those agreements are

14 reached. And we don't know how long that will take.

15 It could be a matter of weeks; it could be a matter

16 of months.

17 So that -- that concludes my official

18 statement on the part of the Electrical Dereg- --

19 or, Restructuring Committee, and I can answer any

20 question you may have about that, but I do want to

21 make another statement.

22 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Why don't you go

23 ahead and make your other statement, and we'll see

24 if we have any questions.

25 A. BY WITNESS LEE: The issue of public

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 interest is one that's hard to define, and yet it's

2 in the law and you wrestle with that. All

3 regulatory commissions wrestle with that.

4 I recall in the matter of the

5 extension of the telephone areas and in the Order

6 given by the Commission that the public expression

7 concerning that extension of the service area to,

8 say, the Soda Springs area had great impact on the

9 Commission. In fact, as I read the Ruling, that was

10 one of the key issues, is the fact that the public

11 turned out in large numbers and they wanted to be

12 included in that calling area. And I think that's

13 had an impact in others as Driggs has come in and

14 Fremont, and now we have one continuous calling

15 area, as I understand it, from Fremont County clear

16 down to the Utah border. And it's very convenient;

17 it's helpful. I can call Senator Geddes now without

18 charge. He could call me and he wouldn't call me if

19 it was he'd have to charge.

20 A VOICE: There's a charge.

21 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Oh, is there?

22 There's a hidden charge.

23 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We're probably

24 going to ask you if that's good or bad.

25 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Okay.

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 At any rate, I think, for me, it's

2 been very beneficial to have that enlarged calling

3 area.

4 But the point is that the public

5 expression had a great deal as I read the Order in

6 the Commission's mind as to whether or not the

7 calling area should be extended.

8 Now, let's talk about the public in

9 this particular case. Both Representative Linford

10 and I have visited with many people in this area

11 about this. Nearly 100 percent are opposed to the

12 merger. If I were to ask for a show of hands -- and

13 I know it's illegal, because I was going to do that

14 but you cut me out of that -- if I were to ask for a

15 show of hands -- and I won't -- I would judge that

16 95 to 99 percent of the people here would be opposed

17 to it by a show of hands, no question about it.

18 We have talked to Legislators from

19 this area, other parts of the state. You will

20 receive the letter in Pocatello, and Senator

21 Richardson referred to that. Senator Geddes

22 helped -- well, he was the moving force behind that,

23 but over 50 Legislators have signed that letter,

24 expressing grave reservations about the issues

25 involved and hoping that the Commission will follow

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P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 the interpretation of the law there. That

2 expression by the Legislature certainly has to do

3 with public interest.

4 The users of the Utah Power and Light

5 service Solutia -- tremendous, huge user -- and the

6 Idaho Irrigation Pumpers Association, which

7 combined, as I understand it, have over 50 percent

8 of the power usage in this -- in this local region,

9 they are opposed to the merger.

10 You've heard now tonight from some of

11 the cities that are opposed to the merger.

12 I would just made the suggestion:

13 Public interest involves all of those entities that

14 I've mentioned, and if -- if -- if you follow what I

15 interpret public interest to be, you would vote

16 against the merger on that issue alone because of

17 the public interest. If we were to take a vote in

18 the Legislature, 50 percent -- more than 50 percent

19 would defeat any proposition. If you were to take a

20 poll and a vote of the people from this region

21 concerning this issue, there is no question that

22 they would vote against the merger. So I'd urge you

23 to consider clearly the public interest.

24 Now, that concludes my statement.

25 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

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P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Thank you. Let's see if we have any questions.

2 Mr. Purdy.

3

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5

6 BY MR. PURDY:

7 Q. I have a couple, Senator Lee,

8 regarding your concerns about water rights; and

9 during the technical hearing conducted before the

10 Commission, a gentleman by the name of Carly Burton,

11 who is an independent consultant that's been hired

12 by PacifiCorp, he used to work for them, testified

13 that there is under way an effort by the Attorney

14 General, through the Department of Water Resources,

15 to reach some type of a Memorandum of Understanding

16 to ensure that water rights are protected, that the

17 Company's water rights are protected for the benefit

18 of its Idaho ratepayers. And if I understood you

19 correctly, you alluded to that in your statement.

20 So to make this into a question, I

21 just want to make sure that you are aware of that

22 effort; and also that you are aware that this

23 Commission, by law, is prohibited from requiring

24 that an electric utility protect its water rights.

25 And that came about if -- you probably have a better

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1 memory in history of this than I do -- as a result

2 of the Swan Falls issue years ago.

3 So do you agree with what I just said?

4 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Well, sir -- and I've

5 forgotten your last name.

6 Q. I'm Brad Purdy.

7 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Yeah, Brad.

8 With respect to the Memorandum of

9 Agreement that you referred to and that was

10 testified to before in the technical hearing, yes,

11 we are very familiar with that, and so is the

12 Department of Water Resources, and so is the

13 Attorney General's office.

14 The communication that I just received

15 dated July the 23rd from Phil Rassier, Deputy

16 Attorney General, he included draft copies of a --

17 of the Memoranda of Understanding or of Agreement.

18 Those are not yet available for public comment or

19 review, but -- and they feel positive that there

20 will be something come of the discussions now that

21 were mentioned by PacifiCorp in the technical

22 hearing.

23 But we want to make sure that those

24 Memoranda are signed and before everyone before the

25 Commission makes a Decision.

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1 Q. So you understand that that action is

2 taken by an agency other than the Public Utilities

3 Commission?

4 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Yes. Correct.

5 MR. PURDY: Thank you very much.

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

7 MR. ERIKSSON: No questions.

8 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Miller.

9 Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner. Commissioner.

10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Oh. You bet.

11

12 EXAMINATION

13

14 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:

15 Q. I guess, Senator Lee, first of all, I

16 just want to say, I do appreciate your welcome to

17 Rexburg and I'm very pleased to be here, because at

18 the C-A-L Store just prior to the hearing, I was

19 able to purchase a pair of irrigation boots that fit

20 me, which was not something I could do in Boise. So

21 I'll be pleased and I'll remember this trip every

22 day I'm out there moving pipe.

23 And I do -- I appreciate also your

24 comments on the public interest, because I think

25 you, as a Legislator, attempt in every way to serve

1089

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 the public interest as much as the Commission; and

2 as you understand the structure of the Statute and

3 the three things we need to look at, the public

4 interest is not that we have to find it's in the

5 public interest, or not that we find there's a

6 benefit to the public interest. Our charge is that

7 we may not approve it if there -- if it's adverse to

8 the public interest.

9 So in my mind, that seems to imply

10 that we need to find certain, specific negative

11 things other than rates which are taken care of in

12 the second test, which is there can be no rate

13 increase as a result of the merger, or service which

14 I think is in the third test, which is they have to

15 have the financial ability and the intent to provide

16 the service in the state.

17 So if you can help me by articulating

18 specific adverse effects, I think maybe, you know,

19 that would help.

20 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Mr. Chairman, Marsha,

21 I think the fact that the public is disturbed and

22 doesn't want the merger is sufficient grounds in the

23 public interest.

24 Q. That's an adverse impact?

25 (Applause.)

1090

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 A. BY WITNESS LEE: That's an adverse

2 impact to the public.

3 (Applause.)

4 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Please. You've

5 been a real good audience, and I'd ask you to hold

6 the applause.

7 A. BY WITNESS LEE: And as I mentioned

8 earlier, the Commission has used that criteria

9 before when there was a positive outcry for the

10 telephone service. The Commission responded because

11 they -- the public wanted it. Now, if the public

12 doesn't want it, that should have an equal impact on

13 the other side.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you,

16 Mr. Chairman.

17

18 EXAMINATION

19

20 BY COMMISSIONER HANSEN:

21 Q. I guess I just have a couple of

22 questions. And we -- we haven't received your

23 letter with the 50 signatures or so on it. We'll

24 welcome that, because we do like to hear from the

25 Legislature.

1091

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 But I guess I'm just kind of curious:

2 If we follow the law or the code, really the

3 Legislature set the rules for us to approve or

4 disapprove a merger. Wouldn't you agree?

5 A. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman.

6 Q. If we don't follow that, even without

7 your letter, if we were not to follow the code or

8 the law that the Legislature put on the books, don't

9 you think we would be across the street at the

10 Supreme Court? Don't you think they would challenge

11 our Decision if it was not in compliance with the

12 law?

13 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Mr. Chairman, I agree

14 with that. And that's why I focused on one aspect

15 of the law, which deals with the public interest.

16 Representative Linford has talked about rates and

17 that particular aspect of it.

18 We've supposed that they have the

19 financial capability, although the $5 million

20 unsecured debt -- $5 billion unsecured debt raises

21 some questions in my mind as to what's really going

22 on here, and I hope you folks will really dig into

23 that aspect of it.

24 But I agree with you that you have to

25 follow the law. We're not suggesting that you break

1092

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LINFORD/LEE (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 the law.

2 I will make one other further

3 suggestion: The interim Committee is reviewing the

4 law to see if it needs to be toughened so that

5 there's a positive benefit to the ratepayer in the

6 future, rather than just not having an adverse

7 effect.

8 Q. You answered my last question.

9 A. BY WITNESS LEE: Okay.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 (The witnesses left the stand.)

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I believe we'll

13 have one more testify, and then we'll take a

14 probably a ten-minute break or so. We'll ask

15 Mr. David Allen.

16

17 A. DAVID ALLEN,

18 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

19 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

20

21 EXAMINATION

22

23 BY MR. PURDY:

24 Q. Sir, your name and address, please.

25 A. I'm David Allen, A-L-L-E-N, 370 South

1093

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING ALLEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Fifth East, Rexburg.

2 Commissioners, Americans and

3 especially Idahoans love their electrical power.

4 The case in point is if we were to shut the power

5 out of this building, this thing would collapse.

6 Your kids at home would yell that the TV is off,

7 your teenager on the Internet would have a fit, your

8 wife's washing machine wouldn't go. You couldn't

9 even read the evening paper. We love our electrical

10 power. Without it, we devolve into hunters and

11 fishers, don't we, very fast.

12 Now, not only do we love it, we want

13 our power to be relatively cheap, inexpensive. We

14 don't want Consolid Edison's prices. We don't want

15 somebody else's. We want relatively inexpensive

16 power.

17 Number two: We want a local power

18 company, local like the neighborhood school. This

19 area has tried to consolidate schools. They don't

20 want consolidated schools; they want local schools,

21 schools that are run by the people. Likewise, I

22 believe, they want a power company that's responsive

23 and local.

24 With respect to responses, one of the

25 others indicated when you call the number in the

1094

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING ALLEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 phone book for power as I did on June the 6th in the

2 middle of a alfalfa field, I was talking to a young

3 fellow in Portland. I had a hard time. He wasn't

4 even familiar with our system of addressing. He

5 couldn't understand what 2000 West and 2000 North

6 meant. We want a local power company with their

7 responses, the neighborhood power company. I didn't

8 know I was in favor of the neighborhood power

9 company until this issue came up.

10 We want control of our power company

11 with its water rights and with its resources. We

12 are not interested in shipping those to Scotland.

13 Now, it reminds me of the fellow who

14 married the foreign woman: After the marriage,

15 there were some unresolved issues. I have concern

16 that we don't know all that Scotland has in mind.

17 I'm convinced we don't. I'm convinced that we

18 don't.

19 Our utilities of natural gas, water,

20 sewer, power, phone, and electrical power, each one

21 of us face every month. I'm a residential customer

22 as a landlord and spend several thousand dollars a

23 year in power bills. It's very important to me to

24 have consistent service and someone I can talk to on

25 the phone when I have a problem.

1095

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING ALLEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ScottishPower will be making

2 decisions -- financial decisions -- in respect to

3 the European economy and the Euro dollar and a whole

4 atmosphere of European/British financial matter, not

5 Southeast Idaho concerns or Western America

6 concerns. We don't -- we're not -- I'm not

7 considered -- interested in the fact that

8 ScottishPower will be making those decisions from

9 their point of view, which they certainly will.

10 I believe that's about all I have to

11 say.

12 Again, let me repeat: The power,

13 relatively inexpensive; local control, the

14 neighborhood power company; responsive to our calls;

15 and with control that we main -- that we retain, not

16 pass it to Portland or to Glasgow.

17 Thank you.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

19 Let's see if we have any questions. Mr. Purdy.

20

21 CROSS-EXAMINATION

22

23 BY MR. PURDY:

24 Q. Sir, do you represent anyone other

25 than yourself, any kind of organization?

1096

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING ALLEN (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 A. I'm a mathematics teacher at

2 Ricks College, and a land and property owner.

3 Q. But you're here speaking for yourself

4 this evening?

5 A. Speaking for myself. And I, like some

6 others, have visited with a number of people and

7 they say -- I can't get any consensus that this is a

8 good idea at all. So I speak of them, but unnamed.

9 MR. PURDY: Thank you.

10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

11 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner.

12 THE WITNESS: Time for a break.

13 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you very

14 much, and we'll take a break. When we come back,

15 right here on this sheet we have another eight

16 signed up, and we'll check the other sheet. We'll

17 begin with Mr. William Taylor when we take up after

18 break, a ten-minute break, please.

19 (The witness left the stand.)

20 (Recess.)

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll call

22 Mr. William Taylor.

23

24

25

1097

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING ALLEN (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 WILLIAM H. TAYLOR,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Sir, would you please state your name

9 and address?

10 A. My name is William Taylor. Taylor is

11 spelled T-A-Y-L-O-R. I live at 4535 West

12 Eighty-first North, in Idaho Falls.

13 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead.

14 A. I appreciate being able to testify.

15 Much of my concerns have already been addressed, so

16 I'll try to be brief.

17 I'm a PacifiCorp customer. I'm a

18 farmer. I farm -- I live west of Idaho Falls. And

19 all of the pumping that I do is with electrical

20 power. All the water I use is pressurized with

21 electricity.

22 I also have a business in Idaho Falls,

23 and so we have the Idaho Falls power to compare with

24 what we pay.

25 My position, speaking for myself and

1098

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 also some of my -- reflecting some of my neighbors'

2 comments, I'm opposed to this merger. Two main

3 concerns: One being service, the other being rates.

4 First of all, service. We have seen

5 with the last consolidation an effort to economize,

6 and we have seen the quality of our service eroded

7 severely. Right now, I can't -- there is no Shelley

8 office. There is no Rexburg office that I know

9 about. If I make a phone call, the only place I can

10 contact is either Salt Lake City or Portland.

11 Recently, we ordered some new service

12 for a building and the dealing had to be done first

13 of all through Portland, and eventually then we got

14 let in to someone local.

15 We've seen the notification of power

16 outages -- and most instances, these are individual

17 outages at irrigation pumping installation -- where

18 we were -- there was an ease of reporting those and

19 getting them fixed, and it has become a nightmare

20 since. They have done a lot in order to remedy it,

21 but it's still a problem.

22 Recently, there was a substation

23 burned up and it took a long time to get a new or a

24 replacement sub- -- a temporary substation, and I

25 was told the reason was they had to get a truck

1099

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 clear from Salt Lake to come and pick up in

2 Pocatello to bring it here.

3 The gist of all this is that there

4 have been already severe cost-cutting measures by

5 Pacific Power, and even though we have enjoyed a

6 rate stability in recent years because of those

7 cost-cutting measures, it has come at the cost of

8 service. There are many other things about ordering

9 new or the availability of replacement transformers

10 or other components, but it -- but the service,

11 whether we're talking about -- I don't know about

12 power production or the distribution, but when we

13 talk about customer service, there has been an

14 erosion.

15 And the second issue -- well, first of

16 all, ScottishPower is telling us that -- that we are

17 going to be benefitted in our rates, in that we'll

18 have less increases than we might ordinarily have

19 because of the efficiencies that they will

20 institute. And my fear is and my experience has

21 been that those cost-cutting measures come at the

22 expense of the customer; that even though there has

23 not been a rate -- an official rate increase to the

24 Company, we're not paying that extra -- extra power

25 rate, but we do pay it. We pay it in time, we pay

1100

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 it in time wasted, we pay it in time waiting, we pay

2 it in delays. It has been an -- in effect, it has

3 been a rate increase because of the lower service.

4 Second, rates. I'm sorry. Secondly,

5 rates. As an irrigation farmer, pumper, I pay a

6 significant portion of my operating cost in

7 electrical power. It varies from year to year, but

8 it is in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent of my

9 total operating cost.

10 Someone mentioned from the stand there

11 that Idaho Power rates were -- had one time, recent

12 memory, were higher than UP&L, and I guess that

13 needs an explanation or challenge. If BPA rates

14 from the BPA exchange credit are considered, that

15 statement could be true. Assuming that the UP&L

16 or -- okay, UP&L customer is on the C rate and

17 receiving a full BPA credit, there at one time was a

18 slight -- slightly lower, and I suspect it did fit a

19 few people.

20 In my condition, I don't get all of

21 the BPA credit because of the number of pumping

22 horsepower that I use. I don't get half. And so,

23 in effect, the -- if I do get half, or I'm paying a

24 higher rate because of the lack of the BPA credit

25 that I receive.

1101

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 The -- ScottishPower has indicated in

2 some prior testimony that they figure that the Idaho

3 customer service area is underearning, which is an

4 indication to me that they expect to have a rate

5 increase here at some point in the future.

6 It's troubling to me that with the

7 billions that are being paid to purchase this

8 company -- PacifiCorp -- with the what I think are

9 excessive offers being made for buyouts, severance

10 pay, stock options, and the like, I -- and I know

11 that there are claims that those -- that the money

12 that is paid for those things are not going to come

13 out of the ratepayers' pocket but out of the -- out

14 of the stockholders' pockets -- I have real serious

15 misgivings about that. I don't believe it, in fact.

16 There is -- there are significant rate

17 disparities with other states. We already pay more

18 than other states which will be in the same service

19 area in the Intermountain West. We compete with

20 those people as farmers and we need every break that

21 we can, but ScottishPower will not -- will not talk

22 about a rate cap. They won't talk about rate

23 parity. They're willing to pay billions of dollars

24 for this electric company, but it's not premature to

25 pay billions of dollars, but it is premature to

1102

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 discuss rate disparity or offer or agree to a rate

2 cap.

3 In summary, I believe that this will

4 not be good for myself, my neighbors, because I

5 think service -- if service costs are cut, service

6 will continue to erode. I don't think we're going

7 to get better service. It appears to me that rates

8 will not go down, but they will get larger as -- as

9 all these costs must be met from someplace, and I

10 think we all know where they ultimately come from.

11 In short, I think this merger proposal

12 is good for the Utilities, is good for the officers,

13 it's bad for the ratepayers.

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Does that

15 complete your testimony?

16 THE WITNESS: That's the end of my

17 statement.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

19 have any questions.

20 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson. Mr. Miller.

21 Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

22 Thank you for your testimony.

23 (The witness left the stand.)

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Next person we

25 have is Carl Palmer.

1103

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING TAYLOR
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 CARL L. PALMER,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Sir, your name and address, please?

9 A. Commissioner, my name is Carl Palmer.

10 My address 3462 Chalet -- C-H-A-L-E-T: Chalet --

11 Drive, Santa Clara, Utah.

12 Q. Go ahead, please.

13 A. First of all, I'd like to ask, can you

14 folks at the back hear me? Can you raise your hand

15 if you can hear me all right?

16 Okay. Gentleman over on the right who

17 was concerned about looking the Respondent right in

18 the eyeballs, I want you to look me right in the

19 eyeballs, because what I'm going to say tonight is

20 very important and I want you to listen really

21 carefully to what I have to say.

22 I'd like to just, first of all,

23 introduce myself. My name is Carl Palmer. I'm

24 president of Carl Palmer and Associates. We're a

25 public utility consulting group. I have a

1104

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 bachelor's degree in physics from Brigham Young

2 University, and I have a master's degree in business

3 from the University of Utah with emphasis in utility

4 operation. I've been in the utility business

5 25 years, and tonight I'm representing the Snake

6 River Valley Electric Association.

7 Now, before proceeding with my

8 remarks, I'd like to make a couple of stipulations:

9 Number one, I'm going to primarily

10 address my remarks to ScottishPower. Where's

11 ScottishPower? Will you raise your hands so I can

12 see you?

13 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman.

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Miller.

15 MR. MILLER: Based on what the witness

16 has told us so far, it appears he is not a customer

17 of PacifiCorp. As I indicated earlier, the Company

18 is more than happy --

19 A VOICE: Speak up.

20 MR. MILLER: -- the Company is more

21 than happy to hear from its customers. I question

22 though the propriety of a testimony from someone who

23 is not a customer and obviously has --

24 A VOICE: Let's hear him.

25 THE WITNESS: These are PacifiCorp

1105

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 attorneys and they do not want me to testify.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We'll have

3 order. Mr. Palmer, Mr. Miller has been given the

4 floor.

5 Mr. Miller, you can finish your

6 statement.

7 MR. MILLER: So I guess we're asking

8 the Commission to consider the proper scope of this

9 hearing and what evidence the Commission thinks that

10 should be received at this hearing. Certainly,

11 evidence from the customers is more than

12 appropriate. We have not objected to any of it; we

13 have not cross-examined with respect to any of it.

14 We question though the propriety of this testimony

15 at this hearing.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Well I would ask

17 you, Mr. Palmer: The scope of this public hearing

18 is for customers of Idaho that are served by

19 PacifiCorp that would be involved with this merger.

20 If you're here as a customer of PacifiCorp in the

21 Idaho jurisdiction, we would be glad to hear your

22 statement.

23 THE WITNESS: I represent over 160,000

24 horsepower of irrigation load in the Upper and Lower

25 Snake River Valley Basin.

1106

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: I believe

2 there -- you would have had earlier opportunity to

3 register as an Intervenor representing those

4 parties, those people, at a technical hearing. This

5 is not a technical hearing today. This is for the

6 public, and the scope of this hearing is strictly

7 the public to serve in Idaho to make their statement

8 or testimony on this.

9 THE WITNESS: Am my testimony is not

10 technical, Commissioner.

11 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: No, but is your

12 testimony representing you, as a customer of

13 PacifiCorp in Idaho?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is.

15 COMMISSIONER SMITH: About the

16 merger?

17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: About the

18 merger?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's concerning the

20 merger.

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay, we will

22 proceed on, and we'd like you to state in on that

23 guideline.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay. The reason my

25 testimony will affect the merger is because

1107

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 PacifiCorp and ScottishPower may be trying -- I

2 should say ScottishPower may be trying to buy an

3 electric utility and end up with no customers at

4 all, or very few customers. If ScottishPower's only

5 interested in the generation and transmission --

6 Hello? Can you hear me now?

7 A VOICE: Yes, almost.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. If ScottishPower

9 is only interested in generation, transmission, and

10 transformation assets, they may want to step out for

11 a bite to eat while I give my testimony. If they're

12 interested in distribution and customers, I invite

13 you to pay special attention to my remarks, because

14 you may be buying an electric system and ending up

15 with very, very few customers.

16 1988, 11 years ago next month, our

17 group were called by a group of Idaho irrigators and

18 others to evaluate a leaving Utah Power and Light

19 and setting up their own electric system like

20 Fall River or the electric; that is, buying their

21 poles, wires, and transformers, or using Utah

22 Power's system to bring our own power in to us. The

23 reason: Because of the loss of the BPA credit, the

24 prohibitively high electric installation cost passed

25 on to irrigators, and the lack of attention to

1108

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 customer needs.

2 The next three years were spent doing

3 an engineering study to evaluate the value of the

4 electric system and the feasibility of leaving

5 Utah Power and setting up an electric home-owned

6 cooperative close to the members who would be using

7 that. Also, defined the value of wholesale power on

8 the open market to be able to bring in and serve

9 ourselves. The study showed that Utah Power and

10 Light customers could do much better by leaving UP&L

11 and controlling their future needs with their own

12 cooperative.

13 We started to organize in 1983, filed

14 the Articles of Incorporation, drew up the Bylaws

15 with the charter being to secure a wholesale power

16 contract on the open market and bring it to our

17 members, including providing maintenance and service

18 of the highest degree. We organized, and our

19 territory now includes from the Utah Power/Idaho

20 Power on the south -- Utah Power/Idaho Power

21 boundary on the South to Dubois on the North; from

22 Tetonia on the East to Arco on the West. We are

23 organized in the Preston/Grace area. We are

24 organized in the Malad area.

25 I am pleased to report tonight that we

1109

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 have tied up an excellent five-year low-cost

2 wholesale power contract with the Enron Corporation

3 out of Houston, Texas, with power and energy rates

4 well under Utah Power and Light -- Utah Power and

5 Light's power and energy rates. We now have

6 comparables on operation and maintenance; we know

7 what those costs are going to be. We have from the

8 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission transmission

9 costs to bring in that power on this system that's

10 serving us now.

11 MR. ERIKSSON: Mr. Chairman.

12 THE WITNESS: The missing link has

13 been distribution costs.

14 MR. ERIKSSON: Mr. Chairman.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

16 MR. ERIKSSON: I'm hesitant to

17 reiterate the objection that Mr. Miller already

18 made, but I really feel compelled to.

19 Mr. Palmer has indicated he represents

20 Snake River Valley Electric Association, with which

21 is in litigation with PacifiCorp, has been for

22 several years, regarding issues which I think he's

23 getting to talking about. There's a whole history

24 here that he's getting into. I don't think it's at

25 all relevant to this case and I don't think it's

1110

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 within the scope of what the Commission ought to be

2 interested in tonight, or at least what I think the

3 Commission is interested in tonight, and that's

4 hearing public witness comments.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: The Chair is in

6 agreement. Objection sustained.

7 Mr. Palmer, if you want to just wrap

8 up a remark, but I believe your testimony really is

9 not in the scope of what we're here to get this

10 evening.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay, my wrap-up remarks

12 will be this, that Utah Power and Light has

13 basically refused to meet with us on bringing in our

14 wholesale power. We have filed a $10 million

15 federal antitrust/anticompetitive lawsuit against

16 them. They filed to have it thrown out of court;

17 the judge ruled against them. They appealed to the

18 Ninth Circuit in San Francisco; the Ninth Circuit

19 wouldn't even hear their appeal. They tried to get

20 a bill through the Legislature to put the co-ops

21 under the Public Utilities Commission and regulation

22 to get rid of us; that failed. Now, we're at the

23 Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco and

24 our case will be heard this fall.

25 Once that ruling is won -- and we

1111

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 don't file a lawsuit to file; we file to win --

2 we'll be able to bring in this wholesale power

3 supply, and any of you that would like to join the

4 Snake River Valley Electric, you do have a choice.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Palmer,

6 that's out of order. Thank you for your testimony.

7 I don't believe we'll have any questions.

8 (Applause.)

9 (The witness left the stand.)

10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We will now move

11 on to Jeff Raybould.

12 Any more applause like this and this

13 hearing will end. We will do it in order and we'll

14 follow the order.

15 A VOICE: This is an American flag.

16 These are the people who died --

17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Sir, you're out

18 of order. Sit down.

19 A VOICE: You're out of order.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Please.

21

22

23

24

25

1112

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING PALMER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 JEFF RAYBOULD,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Would you please state and spell your

9 name, and give us your address?

10 A. My name is Jeff Raybould,

11 R-A-Y-B-O-U-L-D.

12 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners --

13 Oh, address: 301 North 1500 East,

14 St. Anthony, Idaho.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. I have the written statement of

17 Del Raybould that I would like to submit for the

18 record if I may do so at this time.

19 We've heard a lot tonight and the

20 hour's growing late. I'd like to talk just a little

21 bit about reliability and service if I could for a

22 minute.

23 Q. Could I -- I'm sorry. Could I ask you

24 who Del Raybould is?

25 A. That would be my father. His address

1113

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RAYBOULD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 and -- is all included in his statement.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A VOICE: I think it's time you left,

4 Julie.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

6 complete your statement?

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 Back to what I'd like to talk about

9 with reliability and service, I'm very concerned

10 about ScottishPower's understanding of this Idaho

11 service area. I read in the paper that they are

12 going to give me $100 if my irrigation service is

13 interrupted for more than 24 hours. It's been

14 indicated by much testimony tonight, that isn't the

15 case here now. The interruption intervals are much

16 less than that, even for severe breaks in lines and

17 that kind of thing. I have not had a power

18 interruption for over 12 hours since the Teton Dam

19 flood in our farming operation.

20 One of two things comes to mind:

21 Either ScottishPower does not have an understanding

22 of how the operations of Utah Power exist here in

23 Idaho, or they intend to make changes in operations

24 that will cause 24-hour interruptions in power. And

25 I don't know which it is, but either way, I don't

1114

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RAYBOULD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 believe it's in the public interest to have a

2 company come in that doesn't understand what's going

3 on; or intends to make changes, cut employees, cut

4 the ability of overtime hours, those kinds of

5 things. And I think it needs to be addressed, needs

6 to be looked into. I think it's a question that

7 needs to be answered. Because we have good,

8 dependable people working here now, and they do

9 their best to see that power is restored as soon as

10 possible. In most cases, it's not out for over an

11 hour or two.

12 And I would just like the Commission

13 to look at this issue and find out what

14 ScottishPower really intends to do, because as

15 Representative Linford indicated earlier, $100 is

16 nothing to me in the course of my farming operation.

17 If I lose power for 24 hours, it could cost many

18 thousands of dollars in loss of quality to a potato

19 crop. And so I would appreciate you looking into

20 this matter and find out are they going to cut

21 people, are they going to cut hours of time that

22 people can work so that service can't be restored,

23 or do they just plain not understand the current

24 level of service that we enjoy in Eastern Idaho here

25 now.

1115

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RAYBOULD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

3 Let's see if we have any questions.

4 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

5 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

6

7 EXAMINATION

8

9 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:

10 Q. Just one: I guess so what I take it

11 would be important to you is some commitment on

12 behalf of ScottishPower that the local people will

13 remain in place and be available to provide the same

14 level of service or better than what you experience

15 today?

16 A. Well, ScottishPower has indicated

17 they're going to improve service.

18 Q. Right. That means --

19 A. It has to start at the local level.

20 The local people have to be in place. We have to

21 have access to the local people. And the kind of

22 time frame that they are indicating is an

23 improvement to service simply is not true. And so

24 if they're going to improve service, they're going

25 to have to do some things that would -- would cut

1116

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING RAYBOULD (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 the minimal amount of down time that we now have by

2 a significant amount, and I don't believe that is

3 feasible.

4 Q. Okay.

5 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you.

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you very

7 much.

8 (The witness left the stand.)

9 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Don Parker.

10 Don Parker.

11 Mark Mickelsen.

12

13 MARK MICKELSEN,

14 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

15 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

16

17 EXAMINATION

18

19 BY MR. PURDY:

20 Q. Would you please state and spell your

21 name, and give us your address?

22 A. I'm Mark Mickelsen, M-I-C-K-E-L-S-E-N,

23 1050 West Riverview Drive, Idaho Falls, Idaho.

24 I am -- I'm a farmer, as many of the

25 rest of you here. I farm west of Idaho Falls and I

1117

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 also farm south of Firth. I have some -- some

2 fields on Idaho Power and I have some fields on

3 Utah Power, and I'd like to talk about that just a

4 little bit.

5 I think it was Commissioner Hansen

6 that mentioned that Utah Power was cheaper than

7 Idaho Power seven years ago. Was that you?

8 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: That was me.

9 THE WITNESS: Somebody said that.

10 I remember about five or six years

11 ago, I -- I told people the same thing, because in

12 the situation that I was in, we were even with

13 Idaho Power or perhaps just a little bit less.

14 Let me tell you the scenario today,

15 now, with PacifiCorp. I reviewed my last month's

16 power bills. With PacifiCorp, this was my cost:

17 5.2 cents per kilowatt -- and this is for irrigation

18 power -- for the first 25,000 kw, after which the

19 price went down to 3.8 cents. I had a demand charge

20 for every kilowatt or the peak kilowatt use of

21 $4.01.

22 On one particular farm of 1,700 acres,

23 my power bill last month was $52,000. That was

24 about $30 an acre, for one month.

25 I irrigate grain for about two and a

1118

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 half months. That's the equivalent of $75 an acre

2 for grain.

3 My costs to grow grain, just the cash

4 outlay -- I'm not considering the value of the land

5 or anything else, this is cash outlay -- at those

6 prices of $75 for -- for power are $235 an acre.

7 Today's price of wheat: 225. If we

8 do well, we get 100 bushel. That's a $225 return.

9 What do I lose? And I don't get anything back to

10 the land. I think I lose $18. That's -- that's not

11 too good.

12 On Idaho Power south of Firth -- and I

13 do have Utah Power right next to Idaho Power, just

14 across the fence -- this is what my power bill was:

15 2.65 per kilowatt, straight through. My demand

16 charge was 3.55. It's almost half that of

17 Utah Power.

18 Somebody might say, Oh, but you didn't

19 take the BPA credits or take ino account the BPA

20 credits.

21 Well on that bill of 52,000, it said

22 Minus BPA credits of something -- I don't know,

23 18,000 or something -- and then it added it right

24 back in because I have too many horsepower. I

25 didn't get one cent of BPA credit.

1119

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 So my cost for Utah Power or

2 PacifiCorp or whatever they may be was just about

3 double. The Idaho Power, with the same costs, I

4 make $8 an acre to pay it back to my ground; that's

5 pretty good.

6 So my concern with ScottishPower

7 taking over from or merging with PacifiCorp is that

8 they haven't guaranteed any price cap. I think they

9 need to guarantee a price decrease. Because I can't

10 believe there's got to be that much difference a

11 half a mile away or right next -- in fact, there's a

12 power line that runs side-by-side. Off of one line,

13 I pay twice what I do off the other line. There has

14 to be some kind of a price cap or a price reduction,

15 and I think better a price reduction.

16 I mentioned just a minute ago that

17 five, six years ago when it was Utah Power, I was

18 paying about the same as Idaho Power. In fact, I

19 could even call the people in Shelley and in Rigby.

20 I was friends with these people. If I had a

21 problem, I could go work it out. We could work

22 through the BPA thing.

23 After it merged with PacifiCorp, I

24 lost contact with these people -- in fact, they were

25 fired -- and I had no control of my situation

1120

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 anymore.

2 I think if they merge with

3 ScottishPower, it's only going to get worse.

4 Somebody mentioned we might have to call Glasgow. I

5 don't really want to do that.

6 Let me just give one example of what

7 happened because of the PacifiCorp merger:

8 I was driving down a road one day on

9 the farm. Wind came up, blew a power line over.

10 The line didn't touch the ground; it was across the

11 road, however. It was dusk; you couldn't see it. I

12 nearly ran into the high-voltage line. I was in the

13 middle of potato harvest, and I'm the boss, I need

14 to be in the middle of potato harvest, but I didn't

15 dare leave that line because I was afraid somebody

16 would come hit that line.

17 I called PacifiCorp in Portland.

18 An hour and a half later, I called

19 them again and said, There's a high-voltage line

20 across the road that somebody is going to hit.

21 It was dark at that time; nobody would

22 have seen it. They could have been killed.

23 I said, I'm sitting here.

24 Well, we couldn't find that place.

25 I said, Well, I can't stay here all

1121

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 night. You've got to get someone here.

2 Finally, they got it done about three

3 hours later.

4 As Utah Power, I could call up

5 Mike Carter myself if I had to and say, Come fix

6 this.

7 Can't do that anymore. With

8 ScottishPower, I can't believe it's going to get

9 better.

10 That's probably all I have to say.

11 Thank you.

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

13 have any questions. Mr. Purdy.

14

15 CROSS-EXAMINATION

16

17 BY MR. PURDY:

18 Q. Did you increase your horsepower over

19 the years, such that you previously were entitled to

20 the BPA credit but you lost it?

21 A. I did not increase my horse- -- well,

22 I did some, but I lost several of my BPA credits

23 because of the different way they dealt with me.

24 That was the biggest reason.

25 To put my BPA credits together before,

1122

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I met with three of the execs from Utah Power, we

2 came up with a solution which was fine. After

3 PacifiCorp came to be, there was no one I could deal

4 with, no one I could talk to to figure out how to

5 work out my BPA credits, so I lost -- I think I lost

6 ten BPA credits.

7 Q. Are you an interruptible customer?

8 A. Yes, I am, Schedule C.

9 Q. Schedule C?

10 A. Yes. And on that bill, like I say, I

11 got absolutely no BPA credit. That farm has, oh, I

12 think it's about 2500 horsepower.

13 MR. PURDY: Thanks.

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

15 MR. ERIKSSON: No questions.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Miller.

17 MR. MILLER: No, sir.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Budge.

19 Mr. Nye. Commissioner.

20 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: No.

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Commissioner.

22 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you for

23 your testimony.

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

25 your testimony.

1123

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MICKELSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 (The witness left the stand.)

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Tom

3 Katsilometa (phonetic).

4

5 TOM KATSILOMETES,

6 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

8

9 EXAMINATION

10

11 BY MR. PURDY:

12 Q. Please state your name and address,

13 sir.

14 A. My name is Tom Katsilometes, Post

15 Office Box 4016, Pocatello, Idaho.

16 Q. Can you spell that last name for us?

17 A. You didn't get that the first time?

18 (Laughter.)

19 THE WITNESS: K-A-T-S-I-L-O-M-E-T-E-S.

20 Q. BY MR. PURDY: Thanks.

21 A. Mr. Chairman, members of the board, I

22 appreciate being here, say a few words. I'll be

23 very brief. I know it's been a long and hot night.

24 But my name is Tom Katsilometes. I'm

25 chairman of the Bannock County Commissioners. I'm

1124

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 here on behalf of my fellow County Commissioners

2 Carolyn Meline and J. O. Cotant.

3 I guess I should let you know why I'm

4 not down in Pocatello testifying tomorrow night.

5 I'm going to be in Boise tomorrow night because

6 we've got indigent business over in Boise tomorrow

7 evening and Thursday, and we've got to try solve

8 some of our indigent problems for County government

9 over there, so that's where I'll be. So I won't be

10 able to testify in Pocatello, so I did take the time

11 to drive up here tonight to testify before you.

12 About half of our county is within the

13 PacifiCorp service area. From just south of Inkom

14 toward Oneida County and Caribou County, that's all

15 in PacifiCorp area there.

16 And I'm here to testify in support of

17 the proposed PacifiCorp/ScottishPower merger.

18 As a County Commissioner in Southeast

19 Idaho, I want business to treat customers well and

20 be part of our economic or social fabric for our

21 communities. From what I have learned over the last

22 few days about ScottishPower, I believe they will do

23 these things very well.

24 One of the things I've heard -- and I

25 agree with the individual Councilman from Firth and

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HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, you can clarify this -- but

2 one of the things I hear continuously as a County

3 Commissioner in Bannock County -- because we do have

4 our county split in about half with PacifiCorp and

5 Idaho Power, and I'm coming more from the

6 perspective of our residential ratepayers, and I

7 know this first hand because I used to live in the

8 Utah Power area which is now PacifiCorp years ago,

9 and that may not be true now, but years ago, the

10 power rates in that PacifiCorp/Utah Power area were

11 about a third higher than the rates in the

12 Idaho Power area. And I don't think -- the County

13 Commissioners can take care of all kinds of problems

14 and they called us to take care of that one, and of

15 course we couldn't do that but we got complaints

16 about it.

17 So it was a concern we had, and I do

18 think that Councilman has a legitimate concern when

19 he says that some of those rates in those areas are

20 higher. And I would hope that what we're thinking

21 or seeing here is a possibility if this merger does

22 take place of a stability of some of those rates,

23 and not that I want Idaho Power's rates to go back

24 up to where PacifiCorp's are, but at least a

25 stabilization of those PacifiCorp rates through

1126

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ScottishPower to where we don't have a further

2 disparity of those rates.

3 The commitments that ScottishPower has

4 made to its communities in Scotland and England are

5 very impressive. They have created learning

6 centers, education, training opportunities in local

7 areas, and opened these centers for their employees,

8 their families, and the communities at large. They

9 have initiated job training programs for the

10 chronically unemployed. Not only have they done

11 this without government help, the British government

12 has actually looked to the Company to see how a

13 successful training program is run. It has

14 committed to continue these activities in the

15 communities it serves and may serve in the

16 United States.

17 ScottishPower treats their customers

18 well. Their customer service pledges are

19 impressive. But even better is the fact that they

20 back up their promises with payments to customers if

21 they don't live up to their commitments. And,

22 again, I'm referring more specifically to the

23 residential folks that would be impacted here.

24 This company is a good citizen and

25 will be a welcome addition to our communities. For

1127

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 these reasons and others, I would hope that you

2 would look favorably and approve the merger.

3 I appreciate your time and

4 consideration. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman

5 and board members.

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

7 Let's see if we have any questions. Mr. Purdy.

8 Mr. Eriksson. Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye.

9 MR. NYE: Mr. Chairman, a couple

10 quick.

11 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay.

12

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION

14

15 BY MR. NYE:

16 Q. Commissioner Katsilometes, you

17 referred to some information in England. Would you

18 share with us the source of that information; in

19 other words, where you got it?

20 A. I'm not specific as to what you were

21 talking about, but the information as far as things

22 that they have provided in the communities in

23 England?

24 Q. That's correct.

25 A. Well, what I'm understanding is that

1128

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 they do provide community services in terms of

2 learning centers, educational centers, job training.

3 Much has --

4 Q. My question is where did you get that

5 information. Sorry.

6 A. Where did I get that? From

7 ScottishPower.

8 (Laughter.)

9 Q. BY MR. NYE: Are you familiar with

10 their tree trimming program at ScottishPower?

11 A. No, I'm not.

12 Q. Are you familiar with the fine that

13 ScottishPower got for over 100,000 pounds in

14 violation of their tree trimming program in

15 Scotland?

16 A. No, I'm not.

17 MR. NYE: No further questions.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

19 have any questions from the Commission.

20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just appreciate

21 you taking the time to be here.

22 THE WITNESS: Good to be here. Thanks

23 very much.

24 (The witness left the stand.)

25 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Warren Wulf.

1129

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING KATSILOMETES (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Okay, we'll go to Ralph Madsen.

2

3 RALPH MADSEN,

4 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

6

7 EXAMINATION

8

9 BY MR. PURDY:

10 Q. Please state your name and address,

11 sir.

12 A. My name is Ralph Madsen --

13 M-A-D-S-E-N -- 2241 North Salem Road, Rexburg,

14 Idaho.

15 Q. Go ahead.

16 A. The first thing that really interests

17 me in this meeting is "so help me God" was used here

18 and I can't use it in the schools in America.

19 Number two: Utilities are part of the

20 lifeblood of a nation. They're part of the

21 lifeblood of a community. They're part of the

22 lifeblood of a town. I don't think it's in the best

23 interest of Americans, Idahoans, Madison Countyans,

24 Fremont Countyans to have control of their lifeblood

25 at a foreign nation.

1130

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MADSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I can't imagine why ScottishPower

2 would want a power company that's doing as bad as

3 what they say this one's doing, because they can't

4 make any money was said here earlier. I know there

5 isn't an extension cord going to England and so they

6 can't take the power out of the state, or the

7 country. What is the reason they want to be

8 involved in the first place? It has to be money.

9 I remember a lot of -- I've read some

10 promises in the paper of that things won't change

11 and this is going to be wonderful and it's going to

12 be so much better. I remember an ambassador once in

13 history from a country across the sea that said they

14 would not attack America, but they did and their

15 ambassador said they wouldn't.

16 I guess what I'm saying is I don't

17 trust people outside of America being in control of

18 electricity that runs my house. I don't see how

19 that can benefit anybody here, can only benefit

20 those people in ScottishPower that do not live in

21 this nation, and our wealth once again will be

22 siphoned out of America.

23 That's it.

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

25 complete your statement?

1131

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING MADSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 THE WITNESS: That's it.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Madsen,

3 let's see if we have any questions.

4 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson. Mr. Nye.

5 Thank you very much for your

6 testimony.

7 (The witness left the stand.)

8 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Maria (phonetic)

9 Bramwell.

10

11 MARIE BRAMWELL,

12 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

13 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

14

15 THE WITNESS: I want to thank the --

16

17 EXAMINATION

18

19 BY MR. PURDY:

20 Q. Ma'am, would you please state your

21 name and address for us, please?

22 A. Excuse me. Marie Bramwell --

23 B-R-A-M-W-E-L-L -- 326 North 3200 East, Lewisville,

24 83431.

25 I want to thank you people for letting

1132

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BRAMWELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 us come to this meeting and voice our opinions. It

2 would have been pretty difficult for people who are

3 here to go clear to Boise.

4 I don't represent any organization

5 except for my immediate family. At this point in

6 time, there are about 50 of us, including my kids,

7 their spouses, my grandkids, their spouses, and my

8 great-grandkids, and so on.

9 I've been a lifetime customer of

10 Utah Power and Light -- I'm nearly 78 -- and I have

11 no complaints, except I wish the rates were a little

12 lower. We're on social security, and it's always

13 too much month at the end of the money.

14 Like the other speakers, I am

15 concerned about the disparity in the rates with

16 other states and companies; the possibility that if

17 ScottishPower gets in, our rates will go up. I'm

18 worried about water rights and the cost to farmers,

19 because farmers are having a rough time with it

20 right now anyway.

21 I wrote a letter to you, Mr. Hansen,

22 and I guess you could call that as a documentation.

23 I have a few things to add to that.

24 I'm absolutely opposed to this merger,

25 this takeover. I feel that a foreign country should

1133

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BRAMWELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 not be in control of public utilities. If a foreign

2 country comes in here with something to sell, we

3 have a right to decide whether we want to buy it or

4 not; but if ScottishPower comes here, we have no

5 control at all. We're at the mercy of their

6 decisions that they might make. And how do we get

7 in touch with them, like the people have said, do

8 you call Glasgow?

9 I've written some of these things down

10 so I can kind of keep track of them.

11 If this takeover goes through, we do

12 not have any -- any control. Where you folks are

13 kind of in control of this, do you have the right to

14 say, "No."? Can you just say, "No. We don't want

15 this."?

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We could answer

17 that during break or afterwards. We would prefer

18 not to answer any questions right now.

19 THE WITNESS: Well I'm surprised and

20 angry and appalled that this is even being

21 considered, because I don't think it's right to

22 citizens of the state and of the country, as

23 taxpayers, as voters, to let a foreign country come

24 in and take over what is their life. I think our

25 government, both the State and Federal, should

1134

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BRAMWELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 protect us from foreign invasion, whether it's

2 friendly, whether it's a business deal, whatever. I

3 think we should be protected, and I hope that you

4 will.

5 Thank you.

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

7 Let's see if we have any questions.

8 I might just mention that we have

9 received your letter, and I know that I've read it

10 and passed it on to the other Commissioners, so it's

11 in circulation there.

12 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

13 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

14 Thank you very much for your

15 testimony.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 (The witness left the stand.)

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Alice Campbell.

19 Alice? Alice.

20

21

22

23

24

25

1135

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BRAMWELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 ALICE CAMPBELL,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. On your right there, ma'am. Thanks.

9 Would you please state your name and

10 your address for us?

11 A. My name is Alice Marie Campbell,

12 220 West First South, in Rexburg, Idaho.

13 My grandmother homesteaded Rexburg,

14 and I'm very protective of this valley. That's why

15 I'm here tonight.

16 A lot of confusion has happened in the

17 last few weeks considering our power, considering

18 the future of our farmers.

19 I'm a retired schoolteacher of

20 26 years, 22 in Madison District.

21 I feel very strongly that we need to

22 keep our nation sovereign. We need to keep our

23 state sovereign. We need to clean our -- clean

24 house so that our Representatives are representing

25 us, that one Representative can't come from a large

1136

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CAMPBELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 city and tell a group like this that he represents

2 the opinion of thousands of people as we just heard.

3 No one that I've ever visited with

4 about this takeover of the power has been in favor

5 of it in this community.

6 We've had meetings in our Republican

7 Club, Republican women. We didn't get anything

8 clarified. I asked Glen Pond if he had any input at

9 that meeting and could tell us what was going on.

10 I've had to clean up my language, because years ago

11 I would have really asked him what was going on.

12 I kind of like electricity. I

13 remember with my mom and dad living in Jackson Hole,

14 Wyoming, with a kerosene lantern.

15 And my schoolkids, when I used to

16 relate that to them, they'd say, What did you do

17 after dark?

18 And I said, We went to bed.

19 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Right.

20 THE WITNESS: We went to sleep.

21 And, well, How did you read?

22 And I said, We did it in the daylight.

23 I don't want to go back to that. I've

24 seen my power bill go higher and higher and higher

25 each year, especially -- I mean, really higher.

1137

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CAMPBELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I'm very concerned about the

2 takeover. I'm concerned as a former teacher, and I

3 taught many years US History. I'm concerned that a

4 federal agency has its mind made up perhaps. I'm

5 very concerned about that.

6 I don't know whether we, the people,

7 have anything more to say than what's already been

8 said.

9 I think -- I feel very strongly that

10 we were -- we should have had a rate -- a guarantee

11 about the rates.

12 I understood from one young man who

13 works for the Power Company that we'll have perhaps

14 like a disk or a prepaid phone card that will be in

15 our meter. We will receive the amount of power that

16 we have prepaid for, and if that -- and if we don't

17 have -- you know, you forget your power bill and go

18 on a vacation. What happens? If we're a month

19 behind in our power bill, which, God bless me, I've

20 been there in my -- in my days with a lot of

21 children and great-grandchildren and grandchildren,

22 I hate to think of my meter shutting off

23 automatically. This is a power person that works

24 for the Power Company is telling me this.

25 I was excited not long ago when I

1138

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CAMPBELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 heard that Fall River Electric was going to go clear

2 from -- they were going to go into St. Anthony. I

3 said, Hallelujah. You're not very far from

4 Sugar City. Maybe you'll go back to Sugar and get a

5 little corner and live there.

6 We can't afford the power rate

7 increase.

8 There was confusion about where we

9 were going to meet. It was scheduled for the 14th.

10 That was jerked out.

11 Then we were to go to Boise. And we

12 love Boise, you can tell, most of us just really

13 love Boise, you know. And I, for one, don't like

14 driving the freeway to Boise, and when you get

15 there, there's nothing -- there's nobody to

16 represent you half the time.

17 So I know I'm not -- I'm not just a

18 little farm girl that doesn't know. I know what

19 it's like to fight for the flag; I lived through

20 World War II. I guess we'll live through this war.

21 We don't even have people that will

22 run in our local community. We don't have anybody

23 running for the different positions. I don't know

24 how you do it in Scotland, but I know in the

25 United States, it's -- we're free people. We have a

1139

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CAMPBELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 right to sit in front of a Commission; whether we

2 can clap or whatever, that's beside the point.

3 We're all together.

4 And I'm really worried about this. I

5 figure it's a done deal. I figure it's a done deal.

6 If it's like everything else that's been done in

7 politics lately, that's about the way it will be.

8 But I couldn't bring my dear husband.

9 He's such a sweetheart; Forest Gump's cousin, you

10 know. I couldn't bring him here, talk him in to

11 coming with me without speaking up. And on behalf

12 of my five children, 18 grandkids, seven and a half

13 grandchildren so far, I just -- I just have to sit

14 and be counted.

15 And I don't know why Utah Power and

16 Light didn't go right ahead and join with

17 ScottishPower and forget the middleman of

18 PacifiCorp. I mean, what was that all about? We

19 didn't need a middleman. Just do it. Do the

20 dastardly deed and get it over with.

21 And -- and I don't mean to take any

22 more of your time. It's time you went home and

23 relaxed.

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

25 your statement. Let's see if we have any questions.

1140

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CAMPBELL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Any questions? Commissioners.

2 I guess I'd just like to make one

3 comment and assure you that it isn't a done deal.

4 THE WITNESS: Good.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: It won't be a

6 done deal until we have heard the last testimony and

7 then we've looked at the record and deliberated, and

8 I can assure you that it isn't a done deal yet.

9 THE WITNESS: And I was an English

10 teacher. Isn't that terrible?

11 Thank you.

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

13 your testimony.

14 (The witness left the stand.)

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Donald Larsen.

16

17 DONALD LARSEN,

18 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

19 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

20

21 EXAMINATION

22

23 BY MR. PURDY:

24 Q. Sir, your name and address, please.

25 A. Yes. My name is Don Larsen --

1141

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 L-A-R-S-E-N -- 968 East 1100 North, Shelley.

2 I'm here as a residential customer and

3 a consulting engineer to many of the radio stations

4 around this area.

5 I've been a radio engineer for

6 45 years, I've been all over the country, and this

7 is the first time I've really had any kind of power

8 problems.

9 One of the things I do as a radio

10 station engineer is try to anticipate problems and

11 solve them before they become problems. Utah Power

12 and Light right at the moment is so far cut back in

13 personnel that they cannot address problems until

14 they become problems, and it now is fix on failure.

15 I have seen things that they have known that it's

16 been wrong for six to eight months and isn't fixed

17 until it fails in the middle of the night in a

18 blizzard at a great increase in cost, because they

19 have a whole crew out on double time repairing this,

20 when one man could have fixed it in shirt sleeves in

21 the summertime in 15 minutes.

22 I believe the greatest part or a good

23 portion of the distribution costs is -- or, a great

24 portion of the rate that we pay is distribution

25 costs, and the distribution cost for Utah Power and

1142

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Light is much higher than any other utility around.

2 And it's this fact that they have cut back so far on

3 their personnel that they cannot fix it in a normal

4 course of business and pay one or two people

5 straight time. They have to call out a crew,

6 minimum time, minimum hours, at premium rates in the

7 middle of the night to fix it. Meanwhile, we're

8 up -- we're out of power.

9 Since I've -- well, last -- since

10 1993, I've had one station that has really had a big

11 problem and I had a computer on the line monitoring

12 it, and also, I keep track of the elapsed time that

13 it's off and how many power bumps, and it's just

14 absolutely unbelievable the level of and the quality

15 of the service compared to any other utility. I've

16 been in Illinois, Arizona, Wisconsin, South Dakota,

17 Wyoming, Nebraska, and I've never had as much

18 trouble as I've had here, and they don't seem to

19 care.

20 And I think before the merger is

21 allowed to go through, they should have some sort of

22 promise that they will care. In fact, I don't think

23 it's within your power at this point: I would like

24 to see a lot of these problems addressed before

25 they're allowed to consummate the merger and get the

1143

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 system up and running.

2 There's a pole right out here behind

3 the building that was -- it's got a 1961 date code

4 on it. It's pretty well worn. It will probably go

5 for another ten years. That is a good pole compared

6 to what we have down in the Shelley area. That one

7 is practically brand new compared to some of the

8 ones that are down south of Shelley.

9 So I would like to see something be

10 done about approving quality and reliability of the

11 Company before the merger is allowed to happen.

12 That's it.

13 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

14 Let's see if we have any questions.

15 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

16 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioners.

17

18 EXAMINATION

19

20 BY COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER:

21 Q. I just have one question. I guess it

22 gets back to my former broadcasting background.

23 I've installed some translators and transmitters.

24 I'm just curious if the transmitters

25 you have, are they at accessible sites during the

1144

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 wintertime?

2 A. Yes and no. Depends on how bad you

3 want to get to them.

4 Q. So they're on mountain tops that get

5 snowed in that the roads are almost impassable?

6 A. Yeah, we're talking snowmobile

7 territory.

8 But the problem isn't -- this one

9 station I've had all the trouble with, we had to

10 build the line -- three miles worth of line -- to

11 them. That has not been a problem, although they

12 forgot a block washer on one insulator and it came

13 off in the middle of a storm. That's another story.

14 But basically what I can do is when I

15 call it in, if I can get through to the 800 number

16 and wait and listen to the music for half an hour

17 before I get to talk to somebody that doesn't know

18 what the heck I'm saying, I will then go out on the

19 road and I can normally find the problem before I

20 even see any white trucks. And when I'm out on the

21 road, as soon as they repair it, I can take my cell

22 phone and turn the transmitter on without having to

23 go up there. In fact, I can monitor and make sure

24 that all the voltages and phases are right.

25 And so accessibility in the wintertime

1145

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 isn't an issue.

2 Q. Do you have backup generators?

3 A. No, huh-uh. That's -- that's rather

4 excessive for a radio station. The size of the

5 generator we'd be talking about for that

6 installation would be about 50 grand, plus

7 installation; and radio stations, believe it or not,

8 are small businesses. They don't --

9 Q. I believe it.

10 A. -- generate the kind of revenue that

11 everybody thinks they do. You probably know that.

12 Q. And I do feel your pain.

13 A. (Laughter.)

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Now, television is another story.

16 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you for

17 your testimony.

18 (The witness left the stand.)

19 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Shirley Wood.

20

21

22

23

24

25

1146

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING LARSEN (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 SHIRLEY WOOD,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Would you please state your name and

9 address, ma'am?

10 A. Shirley Wood, W-O-O-D. I had to look

11 because my mind isn't clear. 4236 East 540 North,

12 Rigby, Idaho, 83442.

13 I didn't come here to speak, I came to

14 give my letter, but I do appreciate this

15 opportunity. When I say "we" in the letter, I mean

16 my husband and I.

17 We've been on Utah Power for about 30

18 years now, and when we first took the power, we were

19 also promised what they called the Gold -- you know,

20 the rates, so on, and shortly after we built our

21 home, of course, they cut those off. And we did

22 have a hard time at first because our power bill was

23 very, very high, but I will say they did work with

24 us and help us to bring it down and gave us ideas

25 what to do that we could cut the costs and so on.

1147

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING WOOD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 So we, you know -- I'll have to give them that.

2 I want to say that I feel very, very

3 strong. I'm -- this is going to be quite emotional,

4 and I actually -- it's -- I didn't write the letter

5 as strongly as I feel about it, but if you'll permit

6 me, I'll read what I've written:

7 We -- who is my husband and myself --

8 the patrons of Utah Power, and we hope every

9 American citizen, protest the so-called merger

10 between PacifiCorp and England's ScottishPower. We

11 believe our nation's sovereignty is threatened, and

12 no amount of $50 and educational promises will

13 compensate the selling out of our utility power to a

14 foreign nation. Our ancestors, founding fathers,

15 fought hard to get from under England's rule and

16 proclaim our independence. We feel it would be a

17 treasonous act if we now let them buy out or into

18 the United States' utility power.

19 We strongly oppose this sell-out.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

21 Let's see if we have any questions. Any questions

22 from the Commission?

23 Thank you very much for your

24 testimony.

25 (The witness left the stand.)

1148

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING WOOD
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Ellen Baxter.

2

3 ELLEN BAXTER,

4 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

6

7 EXAMINATION

8

9 BY MR. PURDY:

10 Q. Please state your name and address,

11 ma'am.

12 A. Ellen Baxter, 3204 East 1100 North,

13 Ashton, Idaho.

14 Q. Go ahead with your statement, please.

15 A. It's a great opportunity to come and

16 reason together, and there needs to be reason. You

17 know, we have prospered in these United States for

18 many decades, and we are so used to luxuries and

19 improving our lot that we come to a point of

20 forgetting what our basic necessities are. Food,

21 the ability to produce food, shelter, take care of

22 our families: These are basics, and power is basic

23 to producing food, providing shelter.

24 Is it wise to have power collected in

25 the hands of so few? There was a time when

1149

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BAXTER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Americans competed, and now we bleat like sleep for

2 security. Power corrupts, and absolute power

3 corrupts absolutely. Is it ever wise to have such a

4 few people in charge of so much? Is it wisdom or is

5 it greed?

6 It is only practical if we keep our

7 electrical power in the hands of our fellow

8 countrymen. All of our allies were once our enemies

9 and vice versa. Our national defense depends on

10 power to have -- we need to know and be able to

11 trust those in charge of our power. It's just

12 practical.

13 Even the Koreans say, Buy your own

14 goods. That's wise counsel.

15 We've eliminated competition in the

16 name of efficiency, but it may be wiser for us to

17 have more choices. I was greatful to hear

18 Mr. Palmer that said there may be some other choices

19 for us.

20 I urge no sale. No, no, 1,000 times

21 no.

22 Thank you.

23 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you. Let's

24 see if there are any questions.

25 Commissioner Kjellander?

1150

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BAXTER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Okay, thank you very much for your

2 testimony.

3 (The witness left the stand.)

4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Dr. Don Schanz.

5 That was really bad.

6 DR. SCHANZ: Close.

7

8 DR. DON SCHANZ,

9 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

10 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

11

12 EXAMINATION

13

14 BY MR. PURDY:

15 Q. Please state your name and address.

16 A. Thank you. I will.

17 My name is Don Schanz. I live at

18 302 Eleventh Street in Idaho Falls.

19 Q. How do you spell your last name, sir?

20 A. It's S-C-H-A-N-Z. Pronounced Shanz

21 (phonetic).

22 Q. Thanks.

23 A. I'm proud of my Scottish heritage in

24 my own family. However, my testimony will be

25 essentially to oppose this structure. And I think

1151

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 we've been well-served tonight by a number of people

2 who have testified against this on behalf of the

3 rate structure, on behalf of the service that

4 they're concerned about, so I won't address those

5 issues. But I do have a concern and I think that

6 is -- two concerns, actually, that I think that

7 could be further addressed.

8 The first one is the matter of

9 freedom, and I believe that what we're really

10 concerned about here -- at least I am -- is a matter

11 of freedom. I don't really have a choice. I don't

12 have an ability to turn off my power and say I'm not

13 going to heat my house or cook dinner tonight, and

14 not having that ability puts it in your hands. And

15 it's very irritating to a number of folks to know

16 that the Public Utilities Commission would have the

17 power to raise my rates or to control the destiny of

18 my family.

19 Our whole country was structured on

20 the premise that individual rights, individual

21 responsibilities, are our own, and it is difficult

22 for me to say that I can go to an unelected,

23 unaccountable body and have to plead with them to

24 have my power. I would much rather have the ability

25 to be able to say, you know, Drop dead. I'll go

1152

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 somewhere else. I don't need you. Even though

2 you're appointed by the Governor, I don't want you.

3 I think that it's important that we

4 realize that the bottom-line issue here is freedom

5 for the individual to choose. But, again, if we had

6 another alternative, it would be wonderful, but we

7 don't, and that makes a real problem. And it

8 doesn't matter and it's not any reflection on you

9 personally, but I believe it's very important that

10 we understand that not having the power to be able

11 to control our own destiny is very significant to

12 most of we Americans. And I think that not having

13 the power for me to be able to say, No, I don't want

14 you; it's very irritating to know that this is going

15 to go to ScottishPower or whoever -- and it doesn't

16 matter who it is -- that I have no say in it. I

17 mean, it could be 99 to one as it appears tonight to

18 be, and yet you could vote in the other direction

19 and say that it's for the good of all of us, the

20 good old socialist mantra of let's go ahead and take

21 care of those poor people out there.

22 I'd much rather take care of myself.

23 I don't need you. I don't want you. None of us

24 really do. We'd rather have the ability to take

25 care of ourselves.

1153

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 And I think by the sheer fact of this

2 Commission coming together, taking testimony, is an

3 endorsement that you guys have the power, and that

4 irritates me. Again, not personally, so I don't

5 want you to take it personal, but it irritates me

6 that you have the power but it's my life that it's

7 controlling. And I don't like being controlled,

8 neither does any American that I know of.

9 And for that reason, I would say that

10 this is a -- it's going in the wrong direction. If

11 it was getting more local power, more local control,

12 where we had our own little group of co-op or

13 whatever it would be, I think that would be, you

14 know, we could have some control into it, and I

15 could go to my State Representative and say, I like

16 or I dislike this, and if you don't vote like I want

17 you to, then you're out.

18 Even though I know Dirk Kempthorne and

19 previous governors -- I've had -- my son has been

20 his aide and that sort of thing -- I'm convinced

21 that I couldn't go to you guys and say, I'm against

22 it.

23 I'm just one of a thousand people out

24 there. And it concerns me, again, the freedom

25 issue, and so I hope that you take note of that as

1154

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 you look at it.

2 It's not so much rates for me as it is

3 as much as freedom. You know, I pay plenty; so does

4 everybody else here. The service is, you know --

5 the issues have been covered. But that particular

6 issue of freedom I think is very important to me and

7 everybody else.

8 The second thing that I'd like to

9 point out is that I believe that there is a

10 constitutional issue here. In our Constitution, we

11 have a very strong separation of powers in our

12 federal system, and certain powers were delegated by

13 the people to the federal government and others were

14 to the states, and no state was allowed to make any

15 treaties with any foreign powers or any entangling

16 alliances with any foreign governments or

17 organizations. And I believe that we have a

18 constitutional -- potential constitutional issue

19 here, in that we have not the State doing it, but we

20 have essentially the -- a utility company making

21 alliances with foreign powers that are essentially

22 out of our control. I think it's part of a new

23 world order destiny that would like to be imposed

24 upon us and from a very socialist country, and I am

25 very concerned again about how that relates not only

1155

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 to constitutional issues, but ultimately to a

2 freedom issue.

3 Thank you.

4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you. Let's

5 see if there are questions.

6 COMMISSIONER KJELLANDER: No.

7

8 EXAMINATION

9

10 BY COMMISSIONER SMITH:

11 Q. I guess I just had one:

12 The issue of allowing competitive

13 suppliers in the electric industry, as you may be

14 aware, is very big right now nationwide, and, in

15 fact, nearly half of the states -- over 20 -- have

16 passed laws to provide for competition in the

17 provision of energy -- not the distribution line,

18 but in the energy -- so that customers choose who

19 their energy supplier is.

20 In our analyses and I believe in that

21 of the Legislative Interim Committee that you heard

22 testified to earlier, we have found no positive

23 benefit for customers of this state in going to that

24 kind of a new system, basically because we believe

25 that the prices will increase.

1156

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 So my question to you is would it be

2 more important to you to have the ability to choose

3 your power supplier -- not the distribution line,

4 those are in place, but the power that comes over

5 it -- to be able to choose who you buy your power

6 from, would that be more important to you than

7 maintaining a lower cost of that power?

8 A. First of all, I don't believe that

9 those are mutually exclusive type of scenarios.

10 Q. Well, just deal with my hypothesis.

11 A. I understand your hypothesis, but I

12 don't believe that is a correct hypothesis. I think

13 freedom is always a very bottom-line issue, and I

14 think if there is true competition out there,

15 ultimately, we, the customers, will end up with a

16 cheaper rate.

17 I also believe that there is

18 technologies out there, a lot of what I work out,

19 that are very cable of delivering cheaper power than

20 what we're doing right now. I think what we're

21 looking at is an opportunity here for us, as people,

22 to do exactly that sort of thing and get cheaper

23 rates, better service, and have the freedom to

24 control our own destiny.

25 Q. But, of course, the ultimate freedom

1157

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCHANZ (Com)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 is to go off rate?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. Thank you, sir, for having this

4 interesting debate late at night.

5 (The witness left the stand.)

6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Jack Burrup.

7

8 JACK BURRUP,

9 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

10 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

11

12 EXAMINATION

13

14 BY MR. PURDY:

15 Q. Sir, please state and spell your name,

16 give us your address.

17 A. My name is Jack Burrup. I live in

18 Idaho Falls.

19 Q. How do you spell your last name, sir?

20 A. B-U-R-R-U-P.

21 I've been a customer of Utah Power and

22 Light for about 40 years, and I am 100 percent for

23 this Mr. Palmer in a group to get a co-op going here

24 like these REAs. They have been very successful and

25 everybody that's been associated with these REAs

1158

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BURRUP
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 liked them, and that's what we need. We don't need

2 the profits of our country going over to Scotland.

3 There's many farmers, ranchers, and I

4 know of at least a dozen that have gone out of

5 business during the last couple years because of the

6 high cost of operating their farms, and one of the

7 biggest costs, as has been stated here before, is

8 the power bills. They can't make enough money to --

9 on their crops to pay their power bills and pay

10 their taxes.

11 And I'm just 100 percent against this.

12 I would hope we get a co-op going here like

13 Mr. Palmer said; I'll back it 100 percent.

14 That's all I have to say.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

16 Let's see if we have any questions. Do we have any

17 questions?

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20

21 BY MR. PURDY:

22 Q. What's you're address, sir?

23 A. What?

24 Q. Your address.

25 A. 3460 South Yellowstone, Idaho Falls.

1159

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BURRUP (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Q. Thank you.

2 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Do we have any

3 other questions?

4 Thank you very much.

5 (The witness left the stand.)

6 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: We have

7 Ron Grigg.

8 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Oh, you missed --

9 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Excuse me.

10 Leslie Lytle.

11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Julie.

12 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Excuse me.

13 Julie Lytle.

14 MS. GRIGG: Who are you calling?

15 A VOICE: She left.

16 COMMISSIONER SMITH: She's left.

17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Okay. Then

18 Ron Grigg.

19 MS. GRIGG: I believe it's Roee. I'm

20 sure it is. I'm Roee.

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Darwin Grigg.

22 MS. GRIGG: I'm Roee Grigg.

23 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Oh, you're --

24 MS. GRIGG: That's what I told you. I

25 believe it's Roee Grigg. It's spelled R-O-E-E.

1160

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BURRUP (X)
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Oh. I'm sorry.

2 MS. GRIGG: No, that's okay. Most

3 people figure I'm not smart enough to know how to

4 spell my own name, even though I've been doing it

5 for --

6 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Just a few years.

7 MS. GRIGG: Over 21.

8

9 ROEE GRIGG,

10 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

11 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

12

13 EXAMINATION

14

15 BY MR. PURDY:

16 Q. And for the sake of the record, why

17 don't you give us your name again?

18 A. My name is Roee -- R-O-E-E -- Grigg --

19 G-R-I-G-G.

20 Q. And your address?

21 A. 11266 North 95 East, Idaho Falls,

22 Idaho, 83401.

23 Q. Thanks.

24 A. Well, I feel pretty much the same way

25 that most of the other people feel: I do not want

1161

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING R. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 our power sold to a foreign company.

2 I -- I keep thinking about a law that

3 my father told me about that said that our

4 infrastructure was not to be handled by any foreign

5 interests. Now, I have not been able to find

6 anything that says that law has been repealed,

7 anywhere.

8 Our -- the money that is generated by

9 the Power Company should stay in this country. It

10 won't. It will be drained out of our country.

11 When we had UPL, when we first had

12 UPL, the service was glitzy.

13 We have incubators. I don't know if

14 all of you know what incubators are, but they're

15 metal containers that you put eggs in. And the

16 incubators that we use hold 50 eggs. Now, when UPL

17 was there and they had an office in Shelley, I could

18 have a power outage, I could call down there, I

19 could get any one of a number of people and say,

20 Hey, this is Roee Grigg up here. I've got a

21 problem. I've got incubators on-line.

22 Just a minute, Roee, I'll have a guy

23 out there with a temporary generator. You can have

24 it until we can get you back on-line.

25 Now, they never did fix the problem

1162

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING R. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 that really aggravated me. All the way down our

2 road, the power would be off down at Willow Creek.

3 The other side of Willow Creek, I could see that guy

4 down there, and his yard light is always on. No

5 matter how long my power is off, his yard light is

6 always on.

7 Now, when UPL changed hands, we were

8 promised service was going to be better. I spoke to

9 a couple of different people who assured me that

10 this thing with my power being off and that yard

11 light being always on was going be fixed. You know,

12 what? Ain't been fixed.

13 We've got a little box up at the top

14 of a little pole, and when it was first put there,

15 there were three houses there. Now there is one,

16 two, three, four, five -- five houses there, plus

17 irrigation, all coming from that one little box; and

18 they're telling me, and expecting me to be stupid

19 enough to believe it, that that one little box is

20 going to handle all of us. Of course, they don't

21 tell me why we have brownouts.

22 And since these folks took over UPL,

23 last January was it, our power went out. Cold --

24 not as cold as it has been, granted -- cold, for

25 almost 24 hours. My neighbor right next door is

1163

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING R. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 87 years old. We had no heat, we had no lights, no

2 way to fix food. Fortunately for me, my mother

3 lives in Rigby and they had power. But this is the

4 kind of thing that has only gotten worse since the

5 last time we were sold out.

6 Now you're not going to sell this out

7 to a US company but to a foreign company, and I

8 don't believe that they're going to give a damn

9 about my feelings, my way of life, my little egg

10 incubators, and whether or not I lose 50, 100, 200

11 chicks in the springtime. I don't buy it.

12 And all of these wonderful promises

13 that I've heard -- I heard promises before that

14 didn't come about, and I'm -- I guess I'm just

15 hard-headed enough that I don't plan on holding my

16 breath until I can see it actually happen. I don't

17 buy it.

18 I am totally against our power being

19 sold to a foreign company.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Is that your

21 statement?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

23 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

24 have any questions. Is there any? Do we have any

25 questions from the Commission?

1164

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING R. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Thank you very much for your

2 testimony.

3 (Applause.)

4 (The witness left the stand.)

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Darwin Grigg.

6

7 DARWIN GRIGG,

8 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

9 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

10

11 EXAMINATION

12

13 BY MR. PURDY:

14 Q. Your name and address, please?

15 A. My name is Darwin Grigg, and I live at

16 11266 North Ninety-fifth East, Idaho Falls, Idaho,

17 and the rest I think you just became familiar with.

18 I have been a -- at the tender mercies

19 of Utah Power and Light as a customer for 11 years.

20 And I am speaking today as a customer, but I would

21 like to also point out that I have a bachelor's

22 degree in electrical engineering form the University

23 of California Polytechnic University. I also have a

24 master's degree in mechanical engineering, nuclear

25 option, from University of Idaho. So I do have some

1165

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING D. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 technical expertise, and I can recognize when my

2 electricity goes out and when my electricity is at

3 low voltage.

4 Now, as far as my opinion of Utah

5 Power and Light, suffice it to say that many years

6 ago, before PacifiCorp took over, I made out one of

7 my power checks with a Freudian slip and entitled

8 it, paid it out, to Utah Plunder and Loot, and the

9 banks honored it.

10 Since PacifiCorp has taken over, my

11 opinion has gone downhill. Every year that has gone

12 by, the power outages become more frequent, of

13 longer duration, and the under voltage conditions

14 persist much more frequently, and I can definitely

15 tell when one happens because my computer screen is

16 sensitive to voltage and it keyholes after it loses

17 color. And the situation is happening far too

18 frequently.

19 Now, as far as something having to be

20 done about the present situation, I highly agree

21 some type of management change must take place, but

22 this gets me to my bigger concern: That of a

23 foreign country now having control, not just a

24 foreign country, but a -- we will -- if

25 ScottishPower takes over, we will have a board of

1166

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING D. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 directors that firmly believes that Americans are

2 far too profligate in their use of power, and this

3 definitely concerns me.

4 In the 1950s, when I first started

5 becoming aware that there is something more than

6 just the family and started reading the newspapers,

7 I had occasion to read about debates going on in

8 Mexico because of American corporations coming into

9 Mexico and trying to buy up their utilities, trying

10 to buy up their infrastructure. I now see that same

11 debate being carried on here in my own country. And

12 as -- to try to summarize my feelings about selling

13 our infrastructure to a foreign national, I believe

14 it is at the same level of farsightedness as selling

15 scrap iron to Japan in the 1930s.

16 (Applause.)

17 THE WITNESS: In a brief summary in

18 conclusion -- actually, it's a question to those in

19 public trust in our state and local governments, in

20 our federal governments -- when I take a look and

21 see our infrastructure being sold off and debates

22 happening in this country that used to happen only

23 in third-world nations, why have you allowed this to

24 happen to my country?

25 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

1167

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING D. GRIGG
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 complete your statement?

2 THE WITNESS: This completes my

3 statement.

4 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

5 have any questions.

6 Mr. Eriksson. Mr. Miller.

7 Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner. Commissioner.

8 Thank you very much for your

9 testimony.

10 (The witness left the stand.)

11 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Vaughn Nebeker.

12

13 VAUGHN NEBEKER,

14 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

15 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

16

17 EXAMINATION

18

19 BY MR. PURDY:

20 Q. Sir, please state and spell your name,

21 and give us your address.

22 A. Vaughn Nebeker -- V-A-U-G-H-N

23 N-E-B-E-K-E-R.

24 Q. And your address, sir?

25 A. I am at 258 3600 South, Rigby, Idaho.

1168

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING NEBEKER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Q. Thanks. Please go ahead.

2 A. My family were linemen at the

3 onslaught of Utah Power and Light. My father put

4 over 98 percent of the power poles in our Pacific

5 grid system, and my brother Joe Creoseet (phonetic)

6 about 85 percent of the power poles put in the

7 present system. My family, in working for Utah

8 Power and Light, have put in over 40 years in our

9 particular net in the Snake River Valley.

10 I'm also the owner of the copyrights

11 and patents that put out Chernobyl, Three Mile

12 Island, and LR1 in Iraq.

13 Over the years, as my family has

14 worked for Utah Power and Light, when it was first

15 there, if there was an outage, we would usually have

16 it fixed in less than 30 minutes. When my father

17 died in 1961, we were -- my brother Joe still made

18 sure most outages were fixed in 30 minutes or less.

19 But when PacifiCorp came in, they went

20 to the hour rule. And they have -- over the years,

21 big corporations have come in and bought our power,

22 and the constituents have suffered greatly because

23 of it.

24 In the year 2000, a small company

25 called Ukrainian Power and Light will owe me

1169

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING NEBEKER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 something like $500 billion at 35 percent interest

2 for putting out Chernobyl. In putting out

3 Chernobyl, I put up 18 to 19 of my own personal

4 inventions, prototypes, and systems, as the

5 collateral to the Department of Defense so there

6 would be enough money for Chernobyl to go out. It

7 didn't come out of taxpayers' pockets, it didn't

8 come out of State pockets, nor County pockets; it

9 came out of my own.

10 Thank you.

11 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Does that

12 complete your statement?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Let's see if we

15 have any questions. Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

16 Commissioner.

17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No.

18 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you very

19 much for your testimony.

20 (The witness left the stand.)

21 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Gary Ball.

22

23

24

25

1170

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING NEBEKER
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 GARY BALL,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Sir, your name and address, please?

9 A. My name is Gary Ball. I live at

10 368 East -- oh, need to spell that for you? G-A-R-Y

11 B-A-L-L. I live at 368 East Third South, Rexburg,

12 Idaho, 83440.

13 I am a irrigation customer of

14 Utah Power and Light, farm up here on the Rexburg

15 bench, and I am opposed to the merger that we have

16 talked about here tonight.

17 We have heard the term "service" and

18 "rates," and I'm -- I share those same concerns.

19 I'm concerned about service and rates, as well as

20 the disparity with light customers in other service

21 areas.

22 Commissioner Smith, you asked the -- I

23 believe Golden Linford which was more important,

24 service or rates. I thought about that some, and I

25 guess it's kind of like riding in an elevator: As

1171

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BALL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 long as it's going, the service -- the rates are

2 fine, and when it quits, you're concerned about the

3 service.

4 When we read that we are going to be

5 rewarded with $100 if we are off 24 hours, as I'd

6 like to reiterate what Representative Linford said

7 as well as Jeff Raybould, that to us as irrigators,

8 a big red flag goes up. That is a really drop down

9 in service if they consider even a 24-hour dropout.

10 We have not had those kinds. We're used to better

11 service than that. And if that's the way they run a

12 utility, that's quite a step down for us.

13 I -- I would like to say that the --

14 you've heard a lot about the Utility being bare

15 bones, and I think that it is; and we've heard a lot

16 of situations and I think that you should probably

17 maybe experience some, and I would give you

18 permission if you have time tomorrow, you can use my

19 name and you can look up the phone number and call

20 Utah Power and Light and tell them that you have a

21 pump off and the fuse is tripped out, and see how

22 long it takes you to get some service or even find

23 out who knows what you're talking about.

24 And it used to be that we could call

25 down here to Rexburg and they knew where we were and

1172

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BALL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 they could come and take care of it almost

2 immediately, and if you should make that phone call

3 and they ask you the address of that pump, you know,

4 believe it or not, we don't have addresses on those

5 pumps in the middle of the field. And sometimes,

6 they have a lot of difficulty getting to us. But

7 the hard part really is getting through to them to

8 explain your problem to them.

9 I'm going to raise one thing different

10 that we have not heard here tonight and it's been in

11 the back of my mind and maybe a few others, and I

12 mean no disrespect to the Commission and you people,

13 but the Post Register raised I thought a very

14 legitimate question, and in their article today, it

15 says How is the Idaho Public Utilities Commission

16 going to regulate ScottishPower so far away?

17 And I think that's been a little bit

18 in the back of everybody's minds here today. And,

19 you know, I -- I guess I would like to reiterate

20 what we have heard a lot of today, and we started

21 out -- I remember some of them said there's a big

22 play on words here today, and again started out with

23 we have a promise that if rates go up, they won't go

24 up as much as they would have. If they go down,

25 they will go down faster. And the one I really

1173

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BALL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 liked was that -- is that you would allow -- or,

2 ScottishPower would allow a concession to Idaho --

3 the only one -- that is, for the Snake River

4 Alliance if they -- someone had a -- wanted service

5 a quarter of a mile from the electricity site, they

6 could do that, they could choose an outside source

7 to come in.

8 Well, I guess I presume that you know

9 what an electricity site is. I thought when I

10 testified today for the record, I would say that

11 it's a substation, but in reality, to the Utah Power

12 and Light, "electricity site" means your meter. Who

13 in the world has a -- needs electricity a quarter of

14 a mile away from their meter? Really what that says

15 is we really had a play on words. There are very

16 few situations where you've got people needing

17 electricity a quarter mile away from their meter.

18 And I think that echoes the sentiments that we have

19 heard with a lot of the people that's gone on here

20 today with the testimony.

21 And I guess I'm going to finish by

22 just saying one thing; and again, I mean no

23 disrespect to you people and the Commission, and I

24 appreciate what you do, I recognize the necessity of

25 it, I recognize the necessity for public hearings

1174

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BALL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 like this. I echo what Representative Lee said,

2 that the public opinion is important and you come

3 here to get the public opinion, and I think you've

4 heard it tonight. And I guess, in my mind, as I sit

5 here and I -- as I listen to this and what's gone on

6 here, here is a utility that wants to come in and

7 buy Utah Power and Light and they to have raise the

8 rate in order to make it profitable to the rate

9 users. Well, if you don't look at that with a

10 jaundiced eye, you're a prime suspect for that guy

11 that calls at 5:00.

12 And I'll end my testimony with that.

13 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

14 Let's see if we have any questions.

15 Mr. Purdy.

16 MR. PURDY: I have none.

17 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Mr. Eriksson.

18 Mr. Miller. Mr. Budge. Mr. Nye. Commissioner.

19 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Nope.

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you very

21 much for your testimony.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 (The witness left the stand.)

24 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Ron Scott.

25

1175

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING BALL
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 RON SCOTT,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 THE WITNESS: My name is Ron Scott,

6 S-C-O-T-T. That's probably not too hard to spell

7 tonight.

8

9 EXAMINATION

10

11 BY MR. PURDY:

12 Q. And your address, please, sir?

13 A. 3926 East 800 North, Rigby, Idaho.

14 I spent 20 years in the military,

15 traveled around all over the world, and part of that

16 we spent a lot of time talking about strategic

17 resources.

18 I retired from the military and then

19 went to school down at Idaho State and worked on a

20 master of business administration degree, which I

21 succeeded, even as old as I am. I had that

22 ingrained in me of the responsibilities of boards of

23 directors of corporations. Their responsibility is

24 nothing more, nothing less, than optimize

25 shareholder wealth.

1176

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCOTT
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 Okay, now, with that background,

2 Commissioners, I do thank you for the opportunity to

3 come and listen to our positions tonight.

4 I am opposed to this merger. This is

5 definitely not in the public interest; it does

6 adversely affect the public interest. We are

7 basically selling a strategic resource to a foreign

8 corporation. It's that simple. We are selling one

9 of our strategic resources to a corporation. All we

10 have to do is have somebody else buy the stock --

11 whether it's in Russia, China -- and they own our

12 resource. Sleep well tonight.

13 Oh, by the way, that does include our

14 precious water.

15 Okay, now, let's talk about that board

16 of -- board of directors. Okay, they will and do

17 have the responsibility to optimize their

18 shareholder wealth. Our personal holdings -- I

19 don't know how many of you are shareholders in

20 PacifiCorp tonight, but your shares will definitely

21 be diluted, all over the world. This board of

22 directors will have the innate responsibility to all

23 of the shareholders to extract a profit based on

24 their investment in the purchase of PacifiCorp, and

25 must rely -- let's see -- so that must go back to

1177

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCOTT
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 you in the near future, extract that rate increase

2 from us, especially if they're paying all of the

3 additional amounts that we've heard tonight. They

4 have got to have a return on investment and be

5 profitable.

6 You have heard about our concerns from

7 a diluted service. I think we've heard that many,

8 many times. You know, would you like service from

9 your local insurance agent or would you like a 1-800

10 number? I happen to be an insurance agent, that's

11 why I use that. Okay?

12 I personally don't see how this sale

13 can benefit anyone accept the shareholders and

14 employees of ScottishPower and some of the

15 PacifiCorp employees. It's not going to benefit

16 us. It does not benefit the users or the residents

17 of the state of Idaho.

18 I again urge you to disapprove of this

19 merger.

20 Oh, I did have a p.s. as I listened:

21 Additional training costs to train people in these

22 different programs, wherever they may be, those --

23 the money that's going to provide those training is

24 going to be extracted from us, the customers, not

25 from anybody else.

1178

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCOTT
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 I want good power service at

2 reasonable rates. I don't want extraneous services

3 or perks.

4 Thank you.

5 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you. And

6 let's see if we have any questions.

7 Mr. Purdy. Mr. Eriksson.

8 Commissioner.

9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: No questions.

10 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you very

11 much for your testimony.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 (The witness left the stand.)

14 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: This completes

15 the list of those that have signed up. Is there

16 anyone that did not sign up that wishes to make a

17 statement this evening?

18 If you'd like to come forth, ma'am,

19 and we'll swear you in and get you on the record.

20

21

22

23

24

25

1179

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING SCOTT
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 NINY CHRISTENSEN,

2 appearing as a public witness, being first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

4

5 EXAMINATION

6

7 BY MR. PURDY:

8 Q. Your name and address, please?

9 A. My name is Niny Christensen. First

10 name is N-I-N-Y. Last name is

11 C-H-R-I-A-S-T-E-N-S -- C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N-S-E-N.

12 Q. And your address, please?

13 A. Oh. 149 East Third North,

14 St. Anthony, Idaho.

15 Obviously, you, by my accent, you can

16 tell I'm a -- I was born in other place than

17 United States, but I adopted this country as my

18 country because I admire the freedom, I admire the

19 Constitution, I admire the form of government that

20 we have.

21 I am very much concerned about a trend

22 that I see. We are, little by little, selling our

23 country.

24 Why are we selling? Is it because we

25 are being offered more freedom? No, it's strictly

1180

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING CHRISTENSEN
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701 Public

1 because of financial benefit to those that are

2 selling.

3 Those that will own our land will own

4 our freedom. Those that will own our power will own

5 our defense, our freedom, and the kind of life that

6 we are accustomed to in this country.

7 It's about time that we be proud of

8 what we have. I am not going to -- I'm retired, I

9 live on a very limited income, but I'd rather pay

10 higher power prices than to sell the freedom. I'd

11 rather have blackouts, brownouts, whatever you want

12 to call them, than to sell the sovereignty of this

13 country.

14 And that's all I have to say.

15 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Thank you.

16 Let's see if we have any questions.

17 Thank you very much for your

18 testimony.

19 (The witness left the stand.)

20 COMMISSIONER HANSEN: Is there anyone

21 else that did not sign in tonight that would like to

22 make a statement?

23 Okay, well, we certainly appreciate

24 the participation here this evening, and the

25 information that we received from your testimonies

1181

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 and statements that you made this evening, and

2 coming out. You've been a good audience, a good

3 group. I appreciate your cooperation with the rules

4 that we had to follow so that we could get

5 everything on the record this evening. So thank you

6 very much.

7 This will complete our public hearing

8 in Rexburg. We will recess until tomorrow evening

9 at seven p.m. at Pocatello at the -- I believe it's

10 the Cavanaugh Inn.

11 So thank you very much, and good

12 evening. We will adjourn.

13 (The hearing adjourned at

14 10:55 p.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1182

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING COLLOQUY
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701

1 AUTHENTICATION

2

3

4 This is to certify that the foregoing

5 proceedings held in the matter of the joint

6 Application and Petition of PacifiCorp and

7 Scottish Power plc for a declaratory Order or Order

8 approving proposed transaction and an Order

9 approving the issuance of PacifiCorp common stock,

10 Case No. PAC-E-99-1, commencing on Tuesday, July 27,

11 1999, at the VFW Hall, 496 West Second North,

12 Rexburg, Idaho, is a true and correct transcript of

13 said proceedings to the best of my ability, and the

14 original thereof for the file of the Commission.

15

16

17

18 __________________________________
WENDY J. MURRAY, Notary Public
19 in and for the State of Idaho,
residing at Meridian, Idaho.
20 My Commission expires 2-5-2002.
Idaho CSR No. 475
21

22

23

24

25

1183

HEDRICK COURT REPORTING AUTHENTICATION
P.O. BOX 578, BOISE, ID 83701